Colleen Harkin Discussing Criminal Justice Research On The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 14 March 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne to discuss the IPA’s research on criminal justice.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma Dawson joins us. She’s executive director of the think tank, Per Capita. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And Colleen Harkin joins us, director of the Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning.

Colleen Harkin:

Morning. Morning to you both.

Rafael Epstein:

Do either of you want to try making the sound of a Grand Prix car on live radio?

Emma Dawson:

No.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay.

Emma Dawson:

I’ll pass. I’m not that brave.

Rafael Epstein:

Separate question then, Colleen, I’ll start with you. Is there anything Australia could have done to change Donald Trump’s mind on tariffs?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, possibly not. I think he was going… He’s been elected to do what the American people think are best for them, and he’s pursuing that pathway. And I’m not sure that anything we might’ve done would change that. Perhaps down the future we could do something about our current relationships with our ambassador and improve-

Rafael Epstein:

Do you think that would make a difference?

Colleen Harkin:

Maybe not immediately, but perhaps in the longer term. The fact that Penny Wong says that she read about it in the newspaper is a bit concerning. So taking that sort of immediate politics out of it, I’m not sure that we should be too concerned about it. We should be looking at what we can do in our own backyard. We can’t control what America or any other country’s going to do about tariffs, but there’s a lot we could be doing in our own backyard, and looking at that.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma, especially the foreign minister hearing about it through the media, which is how everyone hears about everything from Donald Trump. But still, it means it says something about the channels of communication. Could we have done anything differently?

Emma Dawson:

No, I don’t think so. I mean, those world leaders that did go and bend the knee and into the White House and beg for exemptions and beg for various things, didn’t get anywhere. And I don’t think actually that being… Bullies respond to strength. And he’s bullying the world at the moment. And so I think we need to stand strong and accept that it’s a good thing that we’re not retaliating with tariffs. A trade war helps no one. And Colleen’s right, he’s doing what the American people think they wanted, they voted for. But I think the reception in America now is showing that the people are having a little bit of buyer’s remorse when it comes to the impact of these tariffs that’s likely to have [inaudible 00:02:08]-

Colleen Harkin:

I mean, our sales of… we’re in an export surplus with America, so we ought not to be too concerned about this. And the amount of our export to America is actually minuscule compared to what we sell elsewhere. So I mean people-

Rafael Epstein:

Are you worried worse is coming from America? ‘Cause we sell a lot… So yes, aluminium, steel, not much, but beef. Are you worried more bad stuff’s coming?

Colleen Harkin:

No. And we should be looking at, as I said, we should be looking at our own backyard about the effect of-

Rafael Epstein:

You mean China? Is that what you mean?

Colleen Harkin:

No, domestically, the effective tariffs that we effectively put on our own businesses that increase the cost of doing business in Australia and make our international competitiveness the problematic.

Emma Dawson:

I think if I can talk about beef, he might draw the line there. He loves a Big Mac, right? So he might not go for it but-

Rafael Epstein:

That might be why he puts a tariff on.

Emma Dawson:

It might be why he puts a tariff. Look, there’s very little we can do. And I think one thing we do need to remember, yes, it is going to be damaging for Australia. It doesn’t really matter the level of our exports to America. If it’s a global trade war, it’s going to catch us. Right? But let’s also acknowledge that we’ve restored a lot of trade with China over the last couple of years that had been put on ice under the last government. And that’s actually much more important for our country’s terms of trade.

Rafael Epstein:

1300-222-774 is the phone number. You’re welcome to join. Could Australia have done anything differently? Did Malcolm Turnbull say the right stuff? He spoke with us. Did he make it worse, Emma? Did Malcolm Turnbull make any difference?

Emma Dawson:

No, absolutely not. I mean, Malcolm Turnbull told the truth, and I think he’s right in this instance. You don’t kneel down for bullies. They respond to strength. And so I think Donald Trump called the last prime minister, Scott Morrison, a man of steel. That’s the kind of thing he likes, right? So if we were to be obsequious and please, Mr. President, you actually go down in this person’s estimation. The right thing is to defend Australia’s interests. Obviously, the relationship’s under pressure. I don’t think we’re on our own with that in the world.

Rafael Epstein:

No. What did you make of Malcolm Turnbull?

Colleen Harkin:

God I love Malcolm Turnbull, but I think he’s sort of suffering from relevance deprivation. Not quite sure why the media keep referring back to him because he doesn’t have any [inaudible 00:04:17]-

Rafael Epstein:

‘Cause he’s a prime minister.

Colleen Harkin:

He’s an ex-prime minister

Rafael Epstein:

Who negotiated with Trump.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, but he doesn’t have any standing anymore. Again, I’ll repeat. I disagree with you, Emma. I think there’s a lot that we could be doing domestically about the cost of doing business in Australia.

Rafael Epstein:

Are you talking about climate stuff?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. The duplication of the process, approvals process, between state government and federal government and the extra cost that that puts on things. The whole net zero mandates and the impact on the reduction of productivity and therefore our ability to compete in that international space has made us… We’re putting a noose around our own neck.

Emma Dawson:

There’s no actual evidence though.

Colleen Harkin:

So we don’t need to worry about what Trump or anybody else is doing. We can do stuff. I disagree with your comment that there’s not much we can do. We can do a lot.

Emma Dawson:

There’s no real evidence that the requirements, the environmental requirements, around net zero reducing productivity. The productivity challenge in this country has a lot more to do with the shift to a services economy and the loss of business investment over the last 15 years since the GFC.

I agree with you around federal and state duplication of regulation, but that’s been a longstanding problem in our federated nation. Again, it’s got nothing to do with climate change. And the simple fact is that if we don’t adopt these environmental measures and make sure that, for example, any new developments, any new industrial developments in our country are going to reduce rather than add to carbon in the atmosphere, it won’t matter what our economy looks like in 50 years because our country will be uninhabitable. It’s going to be 37 degrees tomorrow on the 15th of March.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ll see if we have a chance to come back to that. Colleen Harkin’s with us from the Institute of Public Affairs and Emma Dawson’s with us from Per Capita.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen Harkin with us from the Institute of Public Affairs and Emma Dawson’s with us from Per Capita. Not that those things aren’t important, but I’ve got a few other things I want to get to. And Marita has called about the tariffs, I think, from Anglesea. Marita, what do you want to say?

Marita:

Well, there’s no point in the retaliatory tariffs, and that sort of thing. But why not, in response, nationalise the American aluminium company like Alcoa? Speaking of environment-

Rafael Epstein:

Nationally, you mean buy Alcoa smelters, the Government should buy them?

Marita:

Yeah, or pay them out, whatever-

Rafael Epstein:

But then we’d have to wear all the risk.

Marita:

What, sorry?

Rafael Epstein:

We’d, then, have to wear all the risk. Do we want to?

Marita:

No, no, we’ve already been wearing all the risks. The aluminium industry wouldn’t have existed in Australia if it hadn’t been like $40 million of Federal and State subsidies.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, they do get good deals on energy. They do get good deals on energy. That’s true. Sorry, you had one more thing you wanted to mention there, I think, Marita?

Marita:

Oh, yeah, I’d say a corollary segue into the environment. Alcoa, they’re even trying to finish off the job that they did in ruining Anglesea by this Eden Project disaster. We’re going to-

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, this is the old coal plant in Anglesea?

Marita:

Yeah, yeah. Like concrete over the place. The acid sulphate soils will just leach more into the river. And let’s face it, the world is running out of recoverable concrete sand, and it’s such intensive for water and carbon, Eden Project.

Rafael Epstein:

So, you want them to do something different?

Marita:

Alcoa can go to America and take Eden with them.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, okay. Righty-o, okay. Look, I’m not sure I’m going to get into the remediation of what’s going to go on at Anglesea. Gary’s calling from Ballarat, though. What do you want to say, Gary?

Gary:

Yeah, good morning, Raf. How are you doing?

Rafael Epstein:

I’m well. What do you want to tell everyone?

Gary:

Yeah, look, our tariff system’s a mess also. If Australian companies want to use welded steel pipe from overseas, we get charged an anti-dumping duty of 23.8%, despite the fact that that product hasn’t been made in this country for three decades.

Rafael Epstein:

An anti-dumping duty? Oh, that’s to make sure they don’t dump the cheap stuff here?

Gary:

Correct. But we haven’t made that in this country for three decades.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes. Well, they probably don’t want-

Gary:

Yet, still we get charged.

Rafael Epstein:

And is that a significant cost? How much of that stuff do we use, welded steel?

Gary:

Oh, we use lots of it. Any construction that you see piping is usually steel welded pipe.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay, Gary, I’ve got to remember that for next time I get a Federal minister. Who’s tariffs? Tariffs is the Trade Minister, I would assume.

Emma Dawson:

Hmm-mm, Don Farrell.

Rafael Epstein:

I haven’t had a trade interview for quite a while. This is The Wrap. We talk about the news of the week with people like Emma and Colleen.

Just before I get onto, I want to get onto the big bail changes this week, but some fire information for you. There’s a bushfire in the Cathedral Range State Park. It’s just an advice message, but that just means stay informed. So, if you’re in Buxton, Rubicon, Taggerty and the Cathedral State Park, so that’s the area between Marysville and Lake Eildon, northeast of Melbourne, there’s Forest Fire Management Victoria, they’ve got their firefighters, heavy machinery and aircraft responding. There’s no threat to communities, but just stay informed, listen to us, stay across the Vic Emergency app, and the Vic Emergency website as well. So, bushfire in the Cathedral Range State Park advice message. Just stay informed, Buxton, Rubicon and Taggerty.

Emma Dawson, significant changes to bail, and I guess the most significant one is for quite a few years in this state, we’ve made bail a last resort for kids. No more. Like kids, adult crime, adult bail. You do two or three home invasions, you’re not going to get bail. What do you make of that change?

Emma Dawson:

This is a really tough one, because my instinct is to defer to the previous laws which were last resort for children. Because we know that if once children get involved in incarceration in the penal system, they are much more likely to go on to live a life of crime.

So, that was the impetus behind the changes that were made back in 2018, I think it was. Having said that, when a young person is repeatedly committing violent crime, like a home invasion-

Rafael Epstein:

But they haven’t been found guilty, haven’t been charged?

Emma Dawson:

They haven’t found guilty yet. I appreciate that. But there is, I think, a strong community feeling, and it’s a legitimate one, that they should be prevented from doing that. That if they’ve been found doing it once, I appreciate they haven’t been found guilty of that, the likelihood that they’re going to do it again and again. It’s not you do it the first time, and you don’t get bail. It’s if you’re on bail-

Rafael Epstein:

It’s two strikes.

Emma Dawson:

It’s two strikes, and you’re out. From a purely legal point of view, it’s a bit like mandatory sentencing. We know that it doesn’t work. It is a populist response, and I don’t like that, as a rule.

As a person who has a child, the thought of someone breaking into my house, and then it happening again and again, it’s terrifying. And it’s actually very damaging for our society, and for the way we feel about one another.

I’d go back to something I think I’ve said on this show before. We need to go up and look at why this is happening. It’s the old Tony Blair line. Yeah, we need to be tough on crime, but we also need to be tough on the causes of crime. What is causing these young children to be so alienated from the society they live in, that they are resorting to this kind of repeated activity? That’s the piece that’s missing for me.

And before we resort to very, very strong, it’s not quite as bad as Queensland, adult crime, adult time, but before we go down that path, I think we need to look much more at where we’re not investing to prevent it happening in the first place.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

I agree in part with you, Emma, that once a person is in that sort of incarceration pathway, there’s about a 50% recidivist rate. So, it’s something that we really want to avoid.

However, having said that, violent crime is an entirely different scenario. And the collective community has a right to feel safe, and the right to know that those people are not… They’re not going to be exposed to that again. But I listened to your callers during the week, Raf, the heartbreaking story, that I think it was Amy?

Rafael Epstein:

Actually, I might play a little bit of that just for some context. Amy’s son’s been bailed five times. We spoke to her yesterday. We’re calling her Amy, and we’re saying she lives in Ballarat. She lives elsewhere, because we need to protect the identity of her kid who’s under 17.

Been bailed five times. She wishes he had not been bailed the first time. She thinks that might’ve actually stopped things getting worse. Have a little listen.

Amy:

I don’t want my child to end up in jail. I think you have children, and you think to yourself, “As long as they grow up to be good humans and don’t end up in jail, I’ve won.” So, it might mean that I’m a failure, but at the same time, if something doesn’t happen and he doesn’t realise that there’s consequences, the knock on my door that I might get could potentially be that he’s been in an accident, and been killed. So, it could be the thing that’s going to save his life.

Rafael Epstein:

What did you take from that, Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I agree with her. That scenario about… Look, IPA did some research about a year or two ago about what are the deterrents in particularly youth crime. And it is the chance of getting caught is the biggest deterrent. So, if, as we’ve had recently, it doesn’t matter if you get caught, there are no real consequences, and that deterrent has been taken away. We’ve got a situation where we’ve got a jail in West Geelong that’s brand new, brand spanking new-

Rafael Epstein:

Cherry Creek.

Colleen Harkin:

Cost of $1.1 billion, and it’s sitting there empty.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, not empty, but not full?

Colleen Harkin:

No, no, no, it’s empty.

Rafael Epstein:

There’s some beds. There’s some people in there in Cherry Creek, aren’t there?

Colleen Harkin:

No, no, no. I’m talking about the one in West Geelong.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, I’m sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry, yeah, that one.

Colleen Harkin:

So, it’s the one-

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, no, they’ve got capacity in the system.

Emma Dawson:

But surely you’re not saying you build a jail, you’ve got to fill it. I mean.

Colleen Harkin:

Hang on, but it shouldn’t be empty for two years. $75 million has been spent just-

Emma Dawson:

So, what, are we just going to go and round up people to lock up, because we want to return on investment? I mean, that’s insane.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying, is that we have to be fair dinkum about what our prevent markers are, and why you’re there. The idea that putting somebody, I’m not suggesting that stealing from a shop is okay, but that’s not a reason to put somebody into remand. But a violent a crime and breaking into somebody’s home with machetes, that is.

Rafael Epstein:

There’s a problem, though. So, I understand this idea of community sentiment. And every Facebook group in every neighbourhood, in every Western country around the world, is the same stuff, right? Everybody’s got now the technology, the security cameras, everyone’s concerned about it. So, you have to acknowledge the concern. At the same time, we are changing the fundamental basis of the justice system.

Emma Dawson:

This is right,

Rafael Epstein:

Because we are saying you should be locked up before you’ve been convicted. But it’s a change of… So maybe you think it’s a good idea, but it’s not just a, “Oh, we need to listen to people.” It is a fundamental change.

Emma Dawson:

It is.

Colleen Harkin:

We’ve had remand, right?

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

We’ve always had a remand system.

Emma Dawson:

But we’ve treated children differently for the reasons we’ve always said. And Amy’s call, I did hear it earlier this week. To me, they’re the voices we need to listen to, right? Every young person committing a crime is someone’s son or daughter. And I don’t agree that the best form of preventing people falling, or young people falling into a life of crime, is to threaten them with more and more punitive measures. History shows that does not work.

What I want to know, is where was the support for Amy, the first and second and third time her son was found in this position? She’s clearly a mother who is aware of what’s going on, who cares, doesn’t want her son in that situation. Where are the interventions that support young men through their adolescence, that intervene, to stop them being radicalised by-

Rafael Epstein:

Where is that stuff?

Colleen Harkin:

Amy made it really clear, that, as a parent, she doesn’t really have any rights. Once her kid hit 14, her parental rights were taken away from her. So, there’s all these pieces of a jigsaw that are faulty.

Rafael Epstein:

What you’re saying, is that she couldn’t get him into a programme, because he didn’t consent?

Colleen Harkin:

She couldn’t get him into any programme, because he didn’t consent. Right? So, that whole scenario about once a child hits 14, are they an adult, or are they a child? And if they’re a child…

Emma Dawson:

So, let’s look at those settings. Let’s look at are there ways of compelling young offenders into treatment programmes with the support of their families?

Rafael Epstein:

Well, there aren’t. Actually Ali, had some really, really stressful calls. People saying, “I want these services, but I’m not getting them.”

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

And I just wanted to pick up on one thing you said, I mean there’s other issues I want to get to, but you said threatening people doesn’t work. Actually, I’m not quite sure that’s true. We had a really great call from Rob, who’s a barrister, who’s done this for 30 years. The threat of jail is what works. The threat.

Emma Dawson:

The threat.

Rafael Epstein:

You want the threat to work. You want them to respond, and you want them to have an opportunity. Because the problem is, if you have to follow through with the threat, and then they get locked up-

Emma Dawson:

That’s when they fall.

Rafael Epstein:

… then they’re a part of the justice system.

Emma Dawson:

And maybe that’s what this is about, Raf. Maybe it’s enough just to say, “If you are caught doing this when you’re out on bail, you will be locked up.” That’s the threat, right?

But as you say, it is a fundamental change to our justice system. And there have been other small changes to our system of justice that, taken together, mandatory sentencing is one of them, and the Federal Labour Party voted for that when they shouldn’t have. They put that through Parliament when they shouldn’t have. It’s not part of the platform. These things actually reduce and undermine our system of jurisprudence, which is one of the world’s best, and we need to be careful.

Rafael Epstein:

Final word from you, Colleen, [inaudible 00:12:06]?

Colleen Harkin:

That scenario about whether remand is there, it’s taking them off the street, it’s keeping people safe, and the issue of the threat and the not getting caught, part of that scenario is having more police presence. So, spending some more money and having more cops out on the beat so that the kids have that sense that they might get caught, and they don’t want the end result.

Emma Dawson:

I’d rather have better funded schools and teachers-

Colleen Harkin:

They’re not literally-

Emma Dawson:

… and people. Well…

Colleen Harkin:

We should have the money for both.

Rafael Epstein:

Can I just point out something? We’ve been spending a lot of money, and we can’t attract police, and we can’t attract teachers.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

So, that’s a whole-

Colleen Harkin:

That’s a whole other concept.

Rafael Epstein:

We want to do a whole lot of different things.

Emma Dawson:

That’s a problem with how we value their work there too.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, the great stagnation, right? People aren’t shifting. 1300222774 is the phone number. Emma Dawson is one of the voices you were hearing from Per Capita, and Colleen Harkin is with us as well from the Institute for Public Affairs. I’d love to know what you think on 1300222774, but I want to read this.

“These young people are not alienated from the community. They are part of their community. It has different values to our community. We need to bring these young people into our community, make them feel safe, valued, and give them hope.”

And another text here, this is a new low. “Stories are just emotional manipulation. Look at the actual stats of offending.”

I actually just wanted to bring in one other story before I get your lighter moments in the voluminous books that you have chewed through since you were last here, Colleen. The idea that Wegovy, which is the weight loss version of a Ozempic, should be put on the PBS.

We’ve had tonnes of conversations about Ozempic, because of the shortages, and because there’s diabetes use, there’s weight loss use. None of these, the weight loss drugs, are on the PBS. They’re not on the Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme.

The GPs, the Royal College of GPs have been talking about extra Medicare rebates. Today’s the first time they’ve spoken about putting it on the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. I just wanted to play one of our callers. Brent rang in from Doreen. So, if this stuff goes in the PBS, so from 500 bucks a month to 30 bucks a month, what sort of benefits could it bring? Here’s what happened for Brent.

Brent:

It’s going to cost me over four grand a year in medication just from that, and my latest dose was 460- odd dollars.

Rafael Epstein:

So, how would you feel if that was put on the PBS? It’d be a lot cheaper. How would you feel?

Brent:

Awesome. The number of diseases that are prevented by this medication, that would save the health system more than what the discount or the subsidy that would be given by Government.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, is it a good idea, put it on the PBS?

Colleen Harkin:

I actually know a few people who have been taking various versions of that, and they have lost a substantial amount of weight. My understanding is, it does have additional benefits to just the weight loss.

Rafael Epstein:

Absolutely. Health gain, weight loss, apparently?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. So, it’s a cheat’s way of doing it, but why wouldn’t we take it?

Rafael Epstein:

Do you see it as a cheat’s way?

Emma Dawson:

No, it’s not a cheat’s way. It’s a medical condition. It’s a medical issue.

Colleen Harkin:

I also think it also depends on how much weight you want to lose.

Emma Dawson:

I’ve got family members who have struggled with obesity all their lives, and they don’t eat terribly differently to I do. It is a medical condition for a lot of people. And it’s not just the weight loss, it’s everything that comes with that, in terms of their ability to be more involved in their kids’ lives, more active.

It also, apparently, reduces cravings for alcohol, so there’s a benefit there as well. I am a passionate advocate for investing in preventative health, and this would seem to me to be a very good preventative health tool.

Colleen Harkin:

I think it depends on how much weight you’re planning on losing, because people I know are talking about 10 kilos. To me, you could actually do that yourself.

Emma Dawson:

Sometimes that last 10 kilos is the hardest 10 kilos to shift, Colleen. Trust me, not something you’d be aware of.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s the 10 kilos that counts. Okay. If I can, I will get to your calls. But Emma, I’ll get to you both… Just anything in the news, surely something in the news amused to you. Something in the news made you smile, or laugh. If it didn’t, that’s okay, you can go straight to your culture share, but was there any moment when you read a paper, looked at a YouTube? I don’t know what you look at, TikTok. You didn’t laugh? Nothing in the news? Do you go straight to the analysis of the budget?

Emma Dawson:

I laughed wryly this week. I’ve laughed at quite a few of the things that Peter Dutton has said, as he’s trying to tie himself in knots, defending policy shifts that he doesn’t seem to understand. Is everyone going back to work five days a week or is it only for three days a week, or is it pre-COVID? Is it just the public service? Is it everyone? Can we job share? That makes me laugh a little bit.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. You’re allowed to have that as you laugh. Colleen, have you got one, before I get to a culture share?

Colleen Harkin:

Can I just laugh at whatever Emma just said?

Rafael Epstein:

You’re allowed to, that’s fine.

Colleen Harkin:

Because that’s not what he said at all.

Rafael Epstein:

I think, well, [inaudible 00:16:45] me what Jane Hume said. Jane Hume said five days.

Colleen Harkin:

Jane Hume is saying that it ought not to be the default position, that you assume that you can work from home five days a week. It’s actually the flip of that.

Emma Dawson:

It’s interesting, though, that she quoted a study that actually showed that partial working from home a week actually either doesn’t reduce, or slightly enhances productivity.

Rafael Epstein:

Although, I’m going to draw the line there.

Emma Dawson:

This is a gender issue too.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m going to draw the line there, because that’s last week’s news. That’s not this week’s news.

Emma Dawson:

Sorry.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, something you wish to share with the rest of us. YouTube, book, TV show, movie, anything?

Colleen Harkin:

I have a 20-year-old son who sends me the most bizarre things that he sees on TikTok, but I have to say that the American influencer picking up, stealing the echidna. Did you see that?

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, the wombat?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, the wombat. Right? Who does that sort of stuff?

Emma Dawson:

Someone who’s desperate for attention.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, correct. And what amuses me… Oh, it’s not really amusing, obviously.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, you’re an influencer, right?

Colleen Harkin:

You’d do anything-

Rafael Epstein:

You want attention.

Colleen Harkin:

… to influence, right?

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

You’ll do anything, no matter how sort of ridiculous or immoral it is. And what I thought was great, was all the younger kids kind of saying… The demoting of influencers in that process, it’s a good thing.

Rafael Epstein:

If you’ve been living in a cave, she took the baby wombat away from the mother wombat. Emma?

Emma Dawson:

I was going to have something very worthy, which was a book this week, but because I think it was Marita rang earlier, and said about Alcoa and the remediation of that land. There is a fantastic series on Netflix at the moment, called Toxic Town, which is set in the north of England. It’s a true story about the steel town of Corby, and when that steel mill was decommissioned, there was evidence emerged of a cluster of birth defects in the town because of the pollution from the remediation of the steel site.

Rafael Epstein:

Toxic Tower?

Emma Dawson:

Toxic Town.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, town, sorry.

Emma Dawson:

Jodie Whittaker, former Dr. Who is in the lead. It’s a really well put together four episodes. Very, very worth watching. It’s engaging, but it’s also an important topic.

Rafael Epstein:

Fantastic. Emma Dawson from Per Capita, Colleen Harkin from the Institute of Public Affairs, thanks to you both.

Emma Dawson:

Thanks, Raf. Thanks, Colleen.

Rafael Epstein:

Coming up, The Club. I’m just trying to think what else there is. There’s The Club, there’s Don’s Party and there is The Removalist. David Williamson wrote them all. The Removalist is on again here in Melbourne. And the storied, legendary playwright, David Williamson, will be in the studio in just a moment, as well as your Friday-

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne 14 March 2025 has been edited for clarity.