Colleen Harkin Discussing Government Spending On The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 31 January 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne to discuss the IPA’s research on government spending.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Rafael Epstein:

So whatever’s in the news that you think is the most important that people should know about, give us a call. Emma Dawson doesn’t need to call. She’s the executive director of Per Capita. She’s in the studio. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Hello, Raph.

Rafael Epstein:

And joining us for the first time in this segment is Colleen Harkin. She is national manager of the Class Action research programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Morning, Raph, and good morning, Emma.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, I’ll start with you. Most significant thing in the news for you this week.

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I mean the big talking point obviously is inflation and the possibility of a rate cut that’s obviously playing on people’s minds. The cost of living is real for people. It’s really hurting them. I listened to your interview yesterday with the Treasurer and his reluctance to get engaged in whether there would or wouldn’t be a rate cut. Now of course, that’s why it’s appropriate.

Rafael Epstein:

You wouldn’t even say if it had been worth the pain. I was trying to-

Colleen Harkin:

Correct, yeah, I didn’t.

Rafael Epstein:

… talk economic theory.

Colleen Harkin:

But it’s incredibly painful for people. I mean, an average family with a $600,000 mortgage in the last two years has had to find an extra $1,600 a month. I mean, that’s not sitting in people’s back pockets and that’s before you get to groceries, utilities, all of that kind of stuff. So whether we do or don’t get one rate cut is not going to fix the problem. That’s how I see the world, is we’ve got a lot of pain to come. It’s not going away anytime soon.

Rafael Epstein:

Are people’s votes going to be influenced by… I know on the one hand, we all assume most people will vote based on does Peter Dutton or Anthony Albanese deal with the situation you laid out better? Is that the calculation you think people are making?

Colleen Harkin:

Not necessarily. I think as a general rule, people tend to vote with their hip pocket about what’s going to affect them the most and the most beneficial to them. But one rate cut I don’t think is going to change-

Rafael Epstein:

Make a difference.

Colleen Harkin:

… a person’s vote, yeah. I think if there had been maybe five or six or something like that, that may show people that things are under control, but I don’t think that one instance after 12 increases is going to-

Rafael Epstein:

13.

Colleen Harkin:

13, yes.

Rafael Epstein:

He made that point as well.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, is going to change how they see things at the moment.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma, I’m interested in your thoughts on the economics of it and the politics.

Emma Dawson:

On the economics of it, this is a really good result because not only is inflation finally coming down that first, we’ve had 13 interest rate rises, as the Treasurer was very at pains to make clear yesterday, but the first one was before the last federal election, and we had inflation soaring at that time and with a six at 1.7 in front of it. So what has been achieved here is not just that we’ve brought inflation down, but that we’ve done so without throwing hundreds of thousands of people out of work. And as we know, a lot of the commentary by classical economic commentators have said, “We’ll need to see unemployment rise before these interest rates come down.” And what the government and the Reserve Bank have been trying to achieve is what the Treasurer calls a soft landing, so that we don’t lose another 80,000, 100,000 households to unemployment. That’s really important.

Politically, and I think economically, let’s be clear, there’s been two surpluses delivered back to back first time in couple of decades. I’m not a surplus fetishist myself, but I do think in a time of high inflation, it would’ve been tempting to spend that money. A new government coming in, lots of ideas, lots of programmes that front benches and cabinet ministers want to fund. It’s taken real discipline to keep that money out of the economy. So on the economics, I think the government deserves some credit. It’s been incredibly challenging time globally, and I think that the challenge here, of course is the Reserve Bank is independent, as it should be.

Rafael Epstein:

So let me ask you about that. I can see Colleen’s desperate to get in. So I guess the question might be, and I want to get to Colleen as well, because I mentioned large segments of the Jewish community don’t feel safe. I don’t want to neglect that. We’ll come to that. But Emma, how many of the rate rises are because what the government… The Reserve Bank’s independent. We talk about that 12 interest rate rise number because the opposition says that all of the time, they clearly want to sheet that blame home to them. Governments are responsible for the economy, in some ways.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

How much is this government responsible for those interest rate rises?

Emma Dawson:

Very, very little, in my view. Now, you might expect me to say that I’m a social Democrat, I’m a left leaning person. But the global impact of the supply chain disruptions due to international wars and the tail end of COVID. I mean, we pumped a lot of money into the economy, not just here, all around the world as a response to COVID. And I’m not as harsh as to say, oh, it was just a mistake. There were some misguided things, but we also didn’t know what we were dealing with. So to a large extent, the government has not been responsible for the inflation it inherited.

The argument coming from the other side is that it didn’t move quickly enough to bring spending down, and they put too much money into the economy during a time of inflation. But when you look at where that spending was, it was lifting wages for aged care workers and early childhood educators and ensuring that people on the minimum wage got a decent pay rise for the first time in a decade. It was ensuring that people could manage their energy bills and providing rent assistance to people at the very lowest income brackets in our country. I have yet to hear anyone saying they spent too much, actually nominated, which one of those things they wouldn’t have done. Who would they have left behind in a real cost of living crisis? So it’s a very tricky balancing act. I personally think they got it right.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I agree. It’s a tricky balancing act, but the increase in public servants in the last couple of years has been extraordinary. And so, the stage 3 tax cuts, for example, I mean you’re putting money into freeing up business and reducing red tape. That’s where productivity is. It’s not in-

Rafael Epstein:

Which public servants would you not have hired?

Emma Dawson:

That’s-

Rafael Epstein:

Genuine question. Like, I don’t know. I mean-

Emma Dawson:

I mean, we’re talking about people that-

Rafael Epstein:

… I think it’s a 20 or 30% increase in the number of public servants.

Emma Dawson:

36,000. It’s 36,000 in the last two years.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s a lot. So which ones would you not have?

Emma Dawson:

Exactly. The ones that are paying veterans payments, the ones that are managing Centrelink.

Colleen Harkin:

What I’d like to see is the return on investment, because if you ask somebody are they actually getting better services? I don’t think many people would say that that’s their experience.

Emma Dawson:

That’s an interest in business. Business are the employers. The government doesn’t employ people. It’s our money that they’re just recycling.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I think in this case, I mean, one of the things to look at is, for example, a lot of the employment growth has been in the care economy and in the services sector. Now, those 36,000 public servants have been put into frontline positions, Centrelink, Department of Veterans’ Affairs, clearing a massive backlog of payments due to our serving personnel that deserve those, looking after aged pensions.

Joel Jenkins:

So, it is thousands doing Centrelink-

Colleen Harkin:

It is thousands, yeah, but it’s also-

Joel Jenkins:

… and Veterans’ Affairs, but not all 36,000 are doing that.

Colleen Harkin:

No, no, no. But it’s also-

Joel Jenkins:

It’s not 100% clear.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s also replacing a lot of outsourcing that was going on under the previous government where they were bringing consultants to do the work that used to be done by public servants, and that’s false economy too.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s quarter past 10:00. That’s Emma Dawson, who you’re listening to, just there from Per Capita. Colleen Harkin is with us as well from the Institute of Public Affairs.

Whatever was in the news this week that mattered to you? We had a big chat with Shane Patton, the Chief Commissioner. Off the back of, it’s very clear, a significant majority of the Jewish community don’t feel safe. Not every Jew, right? So, I say this cliche all the time, two Jews, three opinions, four synagogues. Shane Patton was adamant though, really big increase in anti-Semitic incidents that they had been called to. Joel is calling from Coburg. What do you want to say, Joel?

Joel Jenkins:

Oh, G’day, Raph. How are you today?

Rafael Epstein:

I’m good.

Joel Jenkins:

It’s good to hear. Look, I’m just calling through, I’m a lowly independent journalist that writes on the outer. My name’s Joel Jenkins. I write under Bogan Intelligentsia on the Subsack. Now, I’ve written one of the few articles in the world looking into the foreign interference, sort of allegations of this.

Rafael Epstein:

You mean the idea they might be directed from overseas?

Joel Jenkins:

Yeah, totally. And look, Drop Site News and Grayzone have covered this overseas.

Rafael Epstein:

Try not to use it too much, Joel. Make your point. Use all of your journalistic skill to make your point.

Joel Jenkins:

All right. The thing I wanted to say is that right now, this transcends the Jewish community, this issue. We’re obviously sort of under attack, our secular harmonious society is under attack, and the allegations that these are foreign actors that may be hiring sort of tobacco fire-style criminals through their dark web is quite disturbing to Australians like as a whole.

Rafael Epstein:

I agree.

Joel Jenkins:

Now, the fact that this is being sort of slotted to raise the cacophony of sound about anti-Semitism, it’s really drawing back from the fact that right now, we have a belligerent nation-state that’s sort of losing in the battle of public opinion.

Rafael Epstein:

You mean Israel?

Joel Jenkins:

Israel, right. And it’s sort of now looking to engage in different tactics. Now it’s diplomatic kind of effort.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. I’m going to be really careful there because I’m not saying foreign interference isn’t a genuine issue because the AFP says it’s a genuine issue. I’m going to leave your point there though, Joel.

Emma, I have no idea how much you delve into these debates. I don’t know if you understand every word of the Balfour Declaration going back to 1917. How do you hear the debate about anti-Semitism and everything that’s going on in Gaza? How do you hear that just as a news consumer and a Victorian?

Emma Dawson:

I hear it with growing horror, actually, and I do think about these issues as a citizen and as a person that’s concerned. My original academic research was in multiculturalism and social cohesion a long time ago, and my grandfather served in what was then the British Protectorate of Palestine in the 1930s.

Rafael Epstein:

Wow. There was a lot going on in the ’30s.

Emma Dawson:

There was a lot going on in the ’30s.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah.

Emma Dawson:

And so, I hear this as I’m really disturbed about the rise in intolerance in our community. What’s going on in the Middle East is horrific. It’s not new and it’s an ancient, ancient fight between-

Rafael Epstein:

The level of violence is new.

Emma Dawson:

The level of violence is new, and the level of us being exposed to it, that it’s on the screens in our pockets every day, I think is one of the big shifts. But what concerns me greatly, and I live in the Ripponlea area, I’m not Jewish myself, I have many Jewish friends, I have many Muslim friends, and what disturbs me is how quickly we’ve seen our social cohesion fray. And there is real fear and real pain in communities here in Australia when we’re really not responsible for what’s going on in the Middle East. Jewish people are not responsible for Israel’s decisions, certainly Jewish people in Australia. Muslim people are not responsible for the acts of Hamas and other terrorist organisations, and Australia has had a very successful, in many ways, multicultural society. That’s a cliche that’s often rolled out, but compared to parts of Europe and the UK, the north of England, where I’m from, we managed our differences, our multicultural colour by saying, “We’re all Australians and we’re all in this together.” And that being under threat is really, really worrying to me.

Rafael Epstein:

How do you hear it all, Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, very similarly. I also live down Bayside not far from a strong Jewish community presence. I’m also not Jewish with Jewish friends and Muslim friends and the fear is very real. Even the ability to just walk down the street and not be attacked or feel that they’re going to be attacked in some way. The level of violence and lack of tolerance, even the sort of the protests in the city. I mean, people feel very intimidated by-

Rafael Epstein:

Should they?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, I’ve experienced it.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, but there are lots of Jews at those protests. It’s a tricky subject, isn’t it? I mean, we actually had this chat the other day. I think a lot of the people at those protests would say, you’ve got to separate the pro-Palestine protests from the rise of anti-Semitism.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, sure.

Rafael Epstein:

I think it’s also true that a majority of Jews would disagree with that, but then there’s also a really significant proportion of Jews who say, “Absolutely. There’s no link between the protests and anti-Semitism.” If you’ve got no connections to any of this, how are you supposed to separate all that out?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I work in the city, and I’ve been in the city on the weekends and there’s an aggressive kind of feel to what’s going on, and I think that’s why this feel of intimidation exists. So I fully defend the right for people to express their views and to protest and all that kind of stuff, it’s a core part of our democracy. But at the moment, there’s this sort a sense of total lack of tolerance and this identity politics, to your point, that sort of says all Jews are not the same and all Muslims are not the same, so two large groups are being tarred with the same brush. And it’s shocking to see, and I don’t want to see any of it on our streets.

Emma Dawson:

I think protests generally are more aggressive, if that’s the word what you want to use, across a range of issues now than perhaps when I was growing up. And I remember being at a protest on climate action in the ’80s when I was a teenage, I was ahead of my time. But the feeling now, the sense of desperation, particularly amongst young people, not just about what’s going on in the Middle East, but about the climate crisis, the actions of groups like Extinction Rebellion, on those kinds of protests, they’re much more in your face than perhaps with this.

Rafael Epstein:

My experience, to be honest, Land Forces-

Emma Dawson:

Hmm, that was the big one.

Rafael Epstein:

That was very full on, and I’ve sadly been to too many protests like that where there’s way too much aggression. That has not been my experience of the Sunday protests-

Emma Dawson:

Same.

Rafael Epstein:

… the pro-Palestine protests, but I mean, it’s shifting.

Emma Dawson:

I think some of the coverage has highlighted of the Palestine protests.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes.

Emma Dawson:

Right? I think it’s right that they weren’t as aggressive as the Land Forces protests-

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, Land Forces, yeah.

Emma Dawson:

But I think some of the coverage that’s focused on the handful of people that are carrying Hamas signs or pictures of-

Rafael Epstein:

[inaudible 00:14:25]

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, then that gives the impression that they’re a lot more aggressive than they actually are. I’ve been down a couple of times and there are kids there. It’s really not-

Rafael Epstein:

You’re saying the media’s part of the problem?

Emma Dawson:

Just a little bit, maybe.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ll turn with Emma Dawson and Colleen Harkin in a moment. Whatever’s been in the news this week, if it’s a rate cut, if it’s Donald Trump targeting diversity, equity and inclusion programmes and blaming them for a plane crash.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

Is that saying that women and people of colour can’t be air traffic controllers? It’s come very close, but I’ve no idea what Donald Trump says. When is it significant and when isn’t it significant? If you’ve got an answer for that, I’m impressed. Give me a call. 1300 222 774.

Speaker 6:

774’s Golden Ticket means double passes to Paul Kelly, Graham Norton, Cyndi Lauper, Beetlejuice, and Jesus Christ Superstar. To win, keep listening to 774 ABC Radio Melbourne. ABC Radio Melbourne, we’re Melbourne through and through.

Rafael Epstein:

1300 222 774 is the phone number, whatever’s in the news. It’s just worth playing this not as… I mean, I don’t want to keep track of every bit and piece of American politics, but this horrific plane crash in the United States, Washington, D.C., it’s one of the most tightly controlled and busy bits of airspace in the US. If you’ve been to Washington, D.C., it’s not a big place. So you’ve got the Pentagon, the White House and airport military choppers, including a chopper that ferries around the president and the vice president. Then you have the crash between the Army chopper and the plane with thankfully not too many people on. It could have been a lot bigger plane. Now, it’s clear that the Republican’s platform at the last election was successful. Part of it was targeting what they call DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion programmes. And the President, without knowing the cause of the crash, is pointing the finger at DEI programmes inside the air traffic control body in the US. Here’s Donald Trump.

Donald Trump:

The FAA’s Diversity and Inclusion hiring plan, which says diversity is integral to achieving FAA’s mission of ensuring safe and efficient travel. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think it’s just the opposite. Brilliant people have to be in those positions. You need a very special talent and a very special genius to be able to do it.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s coming awfully close to saying women and people who aren’t white can’t be air traffic controllers. I’ll start with you, Emmett. When do I pay attention and when don’t I?

Emma Dawson:

It’s the challenge of our age, isn’t it? I mean, I think last time Trump was president, we all tended to laugh a little bit more at some of the things he said than we are this time around because he’s back and it shows it wasn’t a fluke, and there’s a lot of people around him that seem to be much more willing to do the crazy. So I think we have to take everything he says seriously. He’s the president. And this, as absurd as it is, to be effectively hinting at some eugenicist position that women and people of colour don’t have the appropriate level of genius, his favourite word, to do technical scientific jobs, I mean, that’s laughable, but he’s the president and it’s a big movement over there. It’s worrying.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, have I characterised that correctly?

Colleen Harkin:

No, I’ll disagree slightly. I mean, this is obviously a shocking tragedy and it needs to play out in terms of a proper investigation, so let’s put that aside and think about the politics of this is that, I mean, Trump’s view of his eye and his focus on the DEI and ESG and all that kind stuff, I mean, it needs to be dealt with. You have to have the appropriate people capable of doing the job. And I don’t think anybody’s saying that therefore you can’t have white people or Black people or women or whatever it is. It just has to be the person who’s capable of doing the job, and the policy of DEI and ESG fundamentally undermines that.

Rafael Epstein:

[inaudible 00:18:26] what ESG stands for? Environmental, social and what’s the G one?

Colleen Harkin:

Social and governance.

Emma Dawson:

Governance.

Colleen Harkin:

Governance.

Rafael Epstein:

Thank you. Environmental, social and governance.

Colleen Harkin:

So when you have that as your priority, you are fundamentally underlining the skill set of those people who are required.

Rafael Epstein:

Why? Why is it [inaudible 00:18:42]

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I’ll give you an example. The attempted assassination on President Trump and the aftermath of that and why people were not on the roof? Like, why weren’t they on the roof and-

Rafael Epstein:

Sorry, what’s that got to do with the-

Emma Dawson:

What’s that got to do with DEI?

Colleen Harkin:

Because the allegation was that the people who were employed to do that job shouldn’t be on the roof because it’s not safe, because those people don’t need to be there, it’s not a safe place for those people to be. Those kinds of policies that don’t focus on what the job is and who is the best person to do that job undermine everybody, the safety of people. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that that plane crash is-

Rafael Epstein:

No, yeah, it’s okay.

Emma Dawson:

No, no, no. But I think this is the important thing to unpack because it’s a dog whistle of kinds. It’s basically saying, “Look, we’re not saying women and people of colour can’t do these jobs. We’re saying they’ve been employed under a programme that doesn’t care whether they can do these jobs, so we don’t know if they can.” It’s casting aspersions on people’s qualifications purely based on their gender or their race or the colour of their skin. ESG in particular. I mean, if we’re saying we shouldn’t take it-

Rafael Epstein:

Sorry, do you mind if I just limit this to DEI?

Emma Dawson:

Okay, sure.

Rafael Epstein:

Because, Colleen, you were saying, you were nodding no then when Emma was saying that that’s effectively casting aspersions on women why not?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I see it as the exact opposite. You should be blind when you’re employing somebody. Can they do the job or not? And it doesn’t matter whether they’re a male or female, whether they’ve-

Emma Dawson:

Sure, and I actually use blind employment practises at Per Capita, so I will ask my team to de-identify CVs when they come in.

Colleen Harkin:

So you don’t practise DEI?

Emma Dawson:

But I do because I look at people’s backgrounds. Now, if I then go through and go, “This is someone that’s from a different…” It would not affect how I make an employment decision. But I do try, I do try to have voices in my organisation that don’t come from the typical background that works in a political think-tank.

Rafael Epstein:

Can I try and wind this out-

Emma Dawson:

Because you have to widen the perspective, right?

Rafael Epstein:

Can I try and zoom it out a bit? Colleen, do you think we need to target something like systemic racism? And, so it’s a two-part question, do you need to do that? And is the way to do that by saying, “Hey, there’s way too many white guys on the radio at the ABC”?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, first of all, you have to agree that there is systemic racism.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s why I asked.

Colleen Harkin:

Right? So I don’t subscribe to the fact that there is systemic racism. I’m sure, Raph, you have your job because you’re good at it. It’s not because you’re a white male. And it’s insulting to those people who have those positions to say, “The only reason you got it is because you’re a white male or you’re a female, or you’re Black.” You get the job because you’re the best at doing it, and that’s all that should matter.

Emma Dawson:

That principle is so attractive, and most people would agree with it, but it actually masks what’s going on here, which is that institutions of power, and we’re not talking about whether someone gets a cleaning job or not, let’s be honest here, we’re talking about jobs that are powerful, that have-

Rafael Epstein:

Just like the three of us have.

Emma Dawson:

Jobs like the three of us have, that have some influence, yeah, we’re very important. But institutions of power are established, and they’re established for a long time, which means that a group of people, traditionally white men in a Western world, populated those institutions of power. And there is much, much, much evidence to show that people tend to hire people who look and sound like them. I have been guilty of this in the past without realising it, I found one day in an old job I worked for that I’d suddenly hired two young women who’d come from the north of England without really thinking about it, because I related to them. You have to question those assumptions, and you have to be willing to say, “Am I really looking,” as you say, Colleen, “At this person’s merit? Or is it possible that I don’t see them in the same way because they’re an other to me?” And we need to break that down.

Rafael Epstein:

What do you think, Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I mean there’s a lot that goes into employment, particularly, for example, in a small team, it’s very helpful to have people who get along, that understand each other, understand, I don’t know, cultural heritage, whatever it is. So your first point of call has to be, can they do the job or not? And if government policies that prioritise not merit is a problem.

Emma Dawson:

I think the fundamental disagreement here is that I don’t believe that DEI doesn’t prioritise merit. I think what it allows us to do is take a wider lens to see merit where we may otherwise have overlooked it.

Rafael Epstein:

Final 10-second response and I’m going to get your culture shares.

Colleen Harkin:

I mean, people of my org are always accused of an unconscious bias, I suggest that it’s yours, Emma. You’re the one that’s biassed.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, there we go, okay, we’re not going to get to an end point. That’s okay. No, look, I really appreciate that and it’s getting at the heart of some of the tensions and the debates that we all have. So thank you.

Very quickly, a culture share, something you’ve been watching, reading, you might have a TikTok or Instagram influencer you think we should follow. Colleen, what’s your recommendation, culture share?

Colleen Harkin:

No, I just watched a thing on Netflix called With Friends Like Her, and it’s a six-part series, it’s very good. The first 20 minutes is a bit lame, but get over that.

Rafael Epstein:

Rom-com, mystery, spy thriller?

Colleen Harkin:

No, a bit of a rom-com, bit of moral dilemmas. It’s from New Zealand, which is nice, across the ditch. It’s a story of two girls in a very complicated relationship where their past catches up with them and family dynamics and sort of heritage, loyalty, got lots of twists and turns. It’s very good.

Rafael Epstein:

With Friends Like Her on Netflix?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, With Friends Like Her.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay, Emma?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, Severance is back on Apple TV and I love Severance.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m still struggling to get into it, but I’m trying.

Emma Dawson:

I love it. You’ve got persevere through the first couple of episodes and you’ll be hooked. But the guilty pleasure I found on Apple TV is called Prime Target, and it’s a bit silly, it’s a bit of a conspiracy.

Rafael Epstein:

With the beautiful guy from One Day?

Emma Dawson:

That’s the one, yeah, yeah. And Leo someone who’s very, very charming, but it’s a bit silly, it’s a bit of a thriller, it’s a lot of fun, but hard to go past The Newsreader coming back on the weekend.

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t even know what to recommend. The name of that one though is hard to-

Emma Dawson:

Prime Target on Apple.

Rafael Epstein:

Prime Target. I’ve seen the first episode of Newsreader. Oh my God, just for the interaction, the weaving together of real life and the 1989 Logie Awards where Dale Jennings is up against Kylie Minogue and Jason Donovan, it is golden. Watch Y.THe Newsreader and if you haven’t seen it, also go and watch A Complete Unknown, but I’ve raved about that enough, the Bob Dylan flick with Timothée Chalamet. Huge thank you. Excuse me. Huge thank you to Colleen Harkin, Director of the Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs, and Emma Dawson is the Executive Director of Per Capita. Thanks to you both.

Colleen Harkin:

Thanks Raph.

Emma Dawson:

No problem. Thank you.

Rafael Epstein:

Let’s get some news headlines with…

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne 31 January 2025 has been edited for clarity.