Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap ABC Melbourne – 26 September 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on ABC Melbourne Mornings with Rafael Epstein to discuss the IPA’s research on immigration.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Rafael Epstein:

Joining us this morning is Colleen Harkin. She’s director of the school’s programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And Rebecca Thistleton joins us as well. She’s executive director of the McKell Institute. Good morning.

Rebecca Thistleton:

Morning, Raf. Morning, Colleen.

Rafael Epstein:

Now, Rebecca, I’m going to start with that. It’s as far from medical advice as you can get, actually. Not only were we supposedly going to get a “cure for autism”, now we’ve got the “cause for autism.” Tylenol has paracetamol in it. Its sold here as Panadol. So you are clear as well. It is recommended around the world for pregnant women as the painkiller. There’s no change to that advice unless you’re in Donald Trump’s America. Here he is.

Donald Trump:

And by the way, I think I can say that there are certain groups of people that don’t take vaccines and don’t take any pills that have no autism, that have no autism. Does that tell you something? That’s currently. Is that a correct statement, by the way?

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t think anybody said no in response to his rhetorical question. Rebecca, you wanted to talk about that? Why?

Rebecca Thistleton:

I think that perhaps it’s something that just flooded through my algorithm this week because I am the parent of an autistic child. But I was really struck by just how much this has really dominated the conversation this week. And it’s just been, every time I look at social media, it’s what’s really leapt out at me. And I think, too, that we were lucky that in Australia we had the TGA come out straight away and not even go so far as to make particular comments about the President’s comments, but to just talk about how safe paracetamol is for women in pregnancy.

And the health minister was publicising that statement as soon as it was made. But it was really unfortunate to see the likes of 7 News putting out real click bait-type items that morning saying, “The federal government is scrambling for answers after U.S. officials raised concerns,” that that was the approach that was taken by some media outlets.

Rafael Epstein:

Why is that concerning?

Rebecca Thistleton:

Because I think it legitimises something that’s been debunked and it really starts to feed into a sense of fear from people. And it means that you get sometimes maybe well-meaning friends and family get in touch with people that they know, mothers of autistic kids, saying, “Oh, did you see this? Maybe you shouldn’t. Did you take Panadol?” And really trying to incorrectly place blame on mums that have autistic kids. Personally, I was quite relaxed about it. I think that if something had come out saying that eating an abundance of cheese toasties causes autism, I personally would’ve had cause to stop and reflect about what I did in my child’s pregnancy. But it’s a really dangerous way of trying to get clicks, is to really try and encourage this type of fear around something as harmless as paracetamol.

Rafael Epstein:

What do you think, Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, the increase of autism in the last 25 years is quite extraordinary. The stats in America, it’s gone from something like one in 150 down to about one in 30. And there’s 16% of all six-year-olds in Australia are on NDIS for autism. We’ve had a huge increase. The trouble with Trump’s comments is that causation, correlation, all of that kind of stuff is, I don’t know why more research is not being done on it because it is…

Rafael Epstein:

I think there is a lot of research on it.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, they can’t sort of find.

Rafael Epstein:

No, [inaudible 00:04:11].

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, correct.

Rafael Epstein:

Is it dangerous what Donald Trump says or does? Does it matter?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I think for something like paracetamol, there’s even a question about how helpful it is. But if it was a different drug that actually served a greater purpose, then that’s problematic. Do you know what I mean?

Rafael Epstein:

You don’t have to have an opinion. I’m just interested. So some of the things Donald Trump says really concern me, but I don’t think they matter at all. Is this in that bucket? So the reason this one I think is worth listening to, the Food and Drug Administration in the United States do a lot of checking of drugs and we accept that as really good solid science. So our Therapeutic Goods Administration that Rebecca mentioned, a lot of the time they go, “Oh, well, FDA has done the work. We don’t need to do the work. We’ve got limited resources. We’ll focus our attention elsewhere.” So I see it as significant if Donald Trump says this. That doesn’t mean you have to. Is it worth paying attention to?

Colleen Harkin:

In the fact that he sent the hyperbole of it?

Rafael Epstein:

No, it’s a message that’s spread around the world, isn’t it?

Colleen Harkin:

I think it is unhelpful territory when it’s not scientifically based. So if he could cite…

Rafael Epstein:

Some science.

Colleen Harkin:

… some kind of research or something. That’s his style, is to be so outrageous. He exaggerates everything. But if he could refer to some research or something with it, right?

Rafael Epstein:

Well, we can’t though, can he?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. So that’s where it’s problematic because it undermines that central view of people. Because there’s A lot of people now who won’t take vaccines

Rafael Epstein:

Because of people like him.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. And don’t get me on COVID because that’s a different… But I’m talking about childhood vaccinations. We got rid of lots of childhood disease.

Rafael Epstein:

They put fluoride in the water.

Colleen Harkin:

And it’s unhelpful when we’re encouraging people to not go down that path.

Rafael Epstein:

Unhelpful. Yeah, that’s good. That’s an accurate word probably. It’s 11 minutes past 10:00. 774-1300-222-774 is the phone number. You’re listening to your ABC across Victoria. I will get to the contrast between Donald Trump and Anthony Albanese at the United Nations. Andrew Hastie did put out a video on Instagram this week. He’s important and interesting for a number of reasons. Number one, I hope people don’t get sick of me saying this, but I’ve genuinely had people in the federal Liberal Party room say, “Andrew Hastie is going to be the next Liberal Prime Minister.” They genuinely believe that whenever the Liberal Party next become the party of government, he will be Prime Minister.

So that is how his colleagues think of him. He was an absolute exemplar of courage when it came to Ben Robert Smith and the early commentary. I think that’s worth mentioning. He also said this week on Instagram, he didn’t put a video, but he said on Instagram that immigration has exploded and that we feel like strangers in our own home. There’s already people wanting to have a chat about that. I think that’s worth talking about. Debbie’s call about that from Carnegie, and then I’ll find out what Colleen and Rebecca think. But Debbie, what do you want to mention?

Debbie:

I want to mention what happened to the slogans like, “Populate or perish.” I mean, my parents came here in the 1950s from England. They were white Anglos and they were discriminated against too. I really feel for all these recent migrants. I really do.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, I remember my uncle was born in England. I’m going to use a slight slur word. I remember him being so upset that he was called a wog at the footy once when he went to a Carlton game. I mean, he was just so upset. It really, really upset him. Debbie, thank you for your call. I’m interested to know what my guests think. But Jo’s also calling from Sale. What did you want to say, Jo?

Jo:

Hi, Raf.

Rafael Epstein:

Go for it.

Jo:

Well, years ago now, I was at a community event in a nice suburb in Sydney watching the First Fleet’s reenactment, and it was really unsettling because all of a sudden I was surrounded by an entirely white Anglos population.

Rafael Epstein:

Hey, Jo, do me a favour. I do want to hear what you’ve got to say. If you can stop moving because that phone line’s terrible. So keep going. So you were out of First Fleet reenactment. Go from there.

Jo:

And I was totally surrounded by white people and it just felt wrong. I felt like I’d gone into a time warp back to my 1950s childhood. It was not quite right because it wasn’t the Australia that I lived in. And it still isn’t.

Rafael Epstein:

Jo, thank you for your call. I do just want you to hear a bit of Andrew Hastie’s presentation style, I guess. He did put out a video. This is where he’s talking about he wants to burn a whole lot of coal and gas because it’s cheap. He said that would lead us to more complex manufacturing. Here he is.

Andrew Hastie:

The Australian people are at our best when we unlock our innate God-given drive to design and build complex things like cars. We don’t do that anymore. We’re a nation of flat white makers when we could be making beautiful cars like this again.

Rafael Epstein:

Won’t anybody speak up for the flat white makers? Colleen, what’s Andrew Hastie doing?

Colleen Harkin:

There’s a difference between immigration and mass immigration and unplanned immigration, and I think that’s what he’s talking about and I think that’s what people are concerned about. Australia is a nation that is built on immigration and we love that about ourselves, our multicultural basis and heritage. But that doesn’t mean anybody all the time in any numbers.

Rafael Epstein:

But that’s never happened here.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, was it a million people in the last two years? That’s a lot of people in a nation that’s 25 and a half [inaudible 00:09:52].

Rafael Epstein:

But it’s not anybody. Mass migration doesn’t happen. It’s one of the hardest countries to get into.

Colleen Harkin:

But we have had an exponential increase in our immigration in the last couple of years.

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t think exponential is accurate, by the way.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, it’s a million people. A million people have come in the last 18 months.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m not sure that’s right. The general number, and I did check this yesterday, the general number pre-COVID was about 216,000. That’s when our population was about three million less than it is now. The number is heading now to 260,000. So we’ve gone from roughly 216,000 a year increase, this is migration, not birth, to 260,000. I don’t think that fits any definition of massive.

Colleen Harkin:

There was an all-time high immediately after COVID.

Rafael Epstein:

Sure.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s obviously make-up, right?

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, it went up a lot after COVID.

Colleen Harkin:

We are still at near record high.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, we’ve got a record population as well.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, correct.

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t want to have a debate about numbers. Not because they’re not important. I do want to know because, you’re part of the Liberal Party, what do you think Andrew Hastie is doing and do you think the language is okay? And what do you think he’s doing?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I do think for liberal voters his language is appealing. He’s not going to appeal to, I’ll call it the hard left, but there is a sway of people in the middle who are concerned about unplanned and mass immigration. And he’s talking about things that the Liberal Party recently hasn’t made any great gains on. They’re turning themselves inside out at the moment.

Rafael Epstein:

So you do think it’s a good strategy?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

Rebecca, what do you think?

Rebecca Thistleton:

I think it’s interesting when we have a look at the Liberal Party at the moment and we see that right now the most successful person in the Liberal Party is David Crisafulli, and the language that he’s used has been quite deliberate and so much more focused at talking to the centre rather than sticking to that harder right line. In terms of Hastie’s words around not knowing the people that are living around him, I think that he should really go out and speak to his neighbours a bit. I live in a new and growing part of Geelong where it’s a really strong migrant workforce that are building a lot of the new homes there.

I literally wouldn’t have a house going up next door to me if it wasn’t for that migrant workforce. And those workers are coming in here because without them we aren’t actually building the houses that we need right now. And so I think that it’s quite short-sighted, it’s dangerous in terms of wanting to win over those extra votes at the expense of driving division and a real attitude towards people that are coming to Australia and doing a really good job.

Colleen Harkin:

There’s no intention of an anti-migrant tone. I guess that’s what you’re picking up, that’s what you’re saying.

Rafael Epstein:

It sounds a lot [inaudible 00:12:42] was a fascist in Britain. It sounds a lot like the words he used. Keir Starmer, just got into a whole lot of trouble, the British Prime Minister, for mentioning that. [inaudible 00:12:54] used that word. It is clearly the word of choice if you’re a right-wing politician, if you want to stoke racist sentiment. That doesn’t mean Andrew Hastie chose it deliberately, but it’s a big criticism if he’s not aware of the power of that word.

Colleen Harkin:

For sure. We are a migrant country and it’s fantastic. Our multicultural offerings are brilliant and I think that’s what we really like about ourselves. But there’s also values and things that we need to protect and to go slowly in that motion. Otherwise, we do lose things very quickly, and once they’re gone, they don’t come back.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen Harkin is with us from the IPA. Rebecca Thistleton is with us from the McKell. And Rick is with us from Glen Iris. You’re welcome to call in from anywhere across Victoria. I’m 1300-222-774. Rick, you’re in Melbourne. What do you want to mention?

Rick:

Oh, good morning, Raf and panel. I’m Hugely disturbed by Andrew Hastie’s rhetoric. As soon as someone starts talking about we, and it’s a little bit like I’ve heard a couple of people interviewed on the ABC in the last few days, “I’m not a racist but,” it’s a pretty good sign. So fundamentally, the rhetoric that Hastie is using is exactly what the National Socialist movement has been leading with, and giving comfort to that is terrifying in modern Australia. It’s no different to Trumpism.

Rafael Epstein:

Rick, thank you for your call. You’ve thrown that out there. I want to know what everyone else thinks. I’m going to take a quick break and I’ll be back with…

Announcer:

This is ABC Radio, Melbourne and Victoria with Raf Epstein.

Rafael Epstein:

Also, this week we had contrasting visions at the United Nations. Worth keeping in mind, it was the League of Nations before World War II. It was seen as being incapable of stopping World War II from happening. I guess that’s true to say that it was incapable. So in ’45, the United Nations is set up. It’s the 80th anniversary of the creation of the United Nations. That is something the Prime Minister of Australia lent into. And the President of America, I’m pretty sure I checked his speech, I don’t think he mentioned the 80th anniversary. So there’s clearly we know who’s in favour of the UN and who isn’t. But just so you get a bit of the vibe from each of them, firstly, here’s Donald Trump at the General Assembly.

Donald Trump:

Whoever’s operating this teleprompter is in big trouble. These are the two things I got from the United Nations, a bad escalator and a bad teleprompter.

Rafael Epstein:

So that’s a little sample. He did speak for an hour. That’s just 10 seconds, and here’s 10 seconds of the Prime Minister.

Anthony Albanese:

Out of the grief and ruin of war, that generation found the courage, the wisdom, and the compassion to work together for a better peace.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, give me a quick score out of 10. I don’t know how much you saw of each of those speeches but what would you say about both of those appearances?

Colleen Harkin:

I’ve only seen bits and pieces of each of them.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s okay.

Colleen Harkin:

Look, they’re obviously in extreme contrast to each other. Trump’s scathing assessment of the United Nations and Albanese’s was more sort of self-serving, if I can use that word. I don’t think, again, Trump’s hyperbole is entertaining sometimes and it’s often offensive, the things that he says. But I personally don’t hold a lot of weight in the UN. Unelected bureaucrats don’t really do it for me. There’s the idea of getting together and having a chat about things is always helpful, but I don’t hold any station in their decision-making. And I was quite confused about a statement that Albanese made, which I’ve written it down so I could remember. “If any nation imagined it was not subject to United Nations rules, then the sovereignty of every nation is eroded.” And I didn’t really understand what it was trying to-

Rafael Epstein:

Doesn’t that mean respect for international law?

Colleen Harkin:

But then the nation sovereignty is your own sovereignty, is it not?

Rafael Epstein:

Of course.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, I guess I would interpret that as him saying our sovereignty is strengthened by international law, but you’d give him a thumbs up or a thumbs down, the PM, for the speech? Or you don’t really care about it, you don’t think the UN [inaudible 00:02:48]?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, it doesn’t hold any great standing to me.

Rafael Epstein:

I might say, if we don’t have a UN, what else do we have? Then we just have might makes right. But let’s find out what Rebecca made of the two speeches first.

Rebecca Thistleton:

Look, for me, the biggest takeaway was the impact that Emma Mason made with her speech. She was the mother of the fifteen-year-old girl, Tilly, who was bullied online, and she’s been such a strong advocate for rules around young people having access to social media.

Rafael Epstein:

She was amazing. We spoke to her.

Rebecca Thistleton:

She really was. And I think too, at first when this policy was announced, I was very critical. I was quite sceptical of it, and I still am in terms of how it can be implemented. But I think that the reception that she’s received on the world stage and also the Prime Minister’s comments about this as well, really shows the appetite internationally for something to be done to protect people online. And even though it is going to be really hard, and what we really need is for the big social media tech firms is to come to the party here, I think it really highlights the fact that Australia is going that one step in front of a lot of other countries in terms of wanting to protect young people online.

Colleen Harkin:

I just don’t see how it’s going to work unless everybody has-

Rafael Epstein:

[inaudible 00:03:54]

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, unless everybody has digital ID. And I don’t support that. How are they going to actually implement-

Rafael Epstein:

So they say, well, age inference, there are lots of ways they can tell. So this is what they say. I am not saying your concerns aren’t valid. There’s a lot. They already know a lot about you. So if you’re 16 or 17, sure, maybe it might include your ID. They say there’s a lot that digital social media companies can do to work out how old you are. Colleen, you and I apparently will never have to hand over our driver’s licence or our passport. It will be obvious from the length of time we’ve been online on YouTube or wherever, and it’ll be obvious from who we’re mixing with. That’s the answer. Whether or not that satisfies-

Colleen Harkin:

That makes it even more scary.

Rafael Epstein:

You’re not the only person who’s got a concern, but I think that’s something worth raising. We’re all going to find out. In fact, October 14 on your radio, on your television, I’ll be hosting a radio and TV forum about the social media where we’ll try to get some answers.

Colleen Harkin:

Okay, good.

Rafael Epstein:

I think those questions are valid. I’ve interviewed the people who do all the technology. We’re all going to find out on December 10, aren’t we? Just back to the migration chat, Andrew is calling from Williamstown. What do you want to say, Andrew?

Andrew:

Yeah, so good morning, Raf. Look, I think you’re falling into the ABC straitjacket a little bit here, where any attempt to have an open conversation, whether it’s about immigration, culture, whatever, is immediately labelled as racist and we can’t talk about it. And it’s shut down by throwing labels and epithets back and forth at people. That’s where [inaudible 00:05:30]

Rafael Epstein:

So now is your platform, Andrew, even though my time is short, maybe what do we need to say that we’re not saying? What’s the thing we’re not talking about that we should talk about?

Andrew:

I think we should be saying we need to have open space for discussion about these issues. If we keep trying to suppress them, we end up with the sort of things we see happening in Europe where extreme parties on the right and the left [inaudible 00:05:51]. So we need an open way to discuss these things without veering straight away to calling everybody racist or intolerant or whatever the case may be. It just doesn’t work.

Rafael Epstein:

Here’s your chance right now, Andrew, because my argument, my counter argument, if I can make one, we talk about population pressure all the time. I talk about all of the issues to do with infrastructure, houses on the edge, houses in the city. How do you cope? What do you do? Where do you get the energy from? How do you find the schools? How do you build them? Where do you find the humans. To be brutal Andrew, I hope I can say this, the idea that we don’t talk about the pressures on our society, especially on a network like the ABC, I think is absurd. That’s what I strongly feel. So here is your chance. What is the thing that we don’t talk about, that we put the lid on? What do we need to say?

Andrew:

We need to say what kind of population do we need in the future. What is the best mix to get there? And how can we have that open discussion without immediately falling into our entrenched positions? And that means connecting wider social and cultural concerns about immigration, however they may be, with the sort of impact we think it’s having both positive and negative perhaps.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay, so if I then-

Andrew:

That’s what we need that we’re not having now.

Rafael Epstein:

I get it. I’m just trying to shortcut the conversation because my time is short. If you sort of say to me about mix, and if I say to you, “Oh, hold on, you want to vet people based on their values or their religion, is that a good question or is that a question that’s shutting something down?”

Andrew:

I think we should vet people based on whether or not they’re prepared to accept all of the democratic and open and tolerant values that we have both implicit and explicit in Australia. And we should strengthen that in all of our immigration programme. I think we need to just strengthen that aspect so people have a clear understanding of what it means to come to one of the most successful and open and prosperous and liberal democracies in the world, rather than saying, “Oh well, anybody can just turn up because we need someone to build houses.” That doesn’t work.

Rafael Epstein:

That doesn’t happen.

Andrew:

Well, Raf, maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, no, no. So here’s the strong pushback. I don’t think that does happen. People already sit an Australian citizen test. They get asked, “What are you going to do, sort of say, five years time from now? What are your values going to be? Do you understand preferential voting?”

Andrew:

Raf, we have many councils refusing to have citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day, because they say Australia is an inherently racist nation. How can the two go together? The contradictions seem to abound.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s called democracy,

Andrew:

Well, not quite Raf, not quite. Are we saying we’re an open, successful, liberal, prosperous democracy and we want to defend that or not?

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t know, Andrew. Look, I don’t want to shut it down. Thank you. I just tried there to have the back and forth that I thought you were, I don’t know, I was just trying to get somewhere there. Hopefully we got somewhere Andrew. Thank you. Who are you going for tomorrow?

Andrew:

I’m going for Geelong. Always got to back the Victorian team.

Rafael Epstein:

Really? They’re so successful.

Andrew:

Yes.

Rafael Epstein:

What about the underdog?

Andrew:

Well, I don’t think you can call Brisbane the underdog anymore.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, okay. Yeah, fair. Okay, full points for that response. Thank you, Andrew. I don’t know, I’m just trying to ventilate because I can see a whole lot of texts there and I can see a whole lot of calls, so I want to thank Andrew. Just trying to ventilate those issues. Those words are slippery. I know it’s not easy to have those conversations. In the time that I have left, Colleen and Rebecca are two of the most cultured people that I know. They’re both laughing and rolling their eyes.

Colleen Harkin:

Shame on you.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah. Gee, my friends are ignoramuses. Colleen, what cultured bit of TV, stage, book, Instagram, YouTube are you recommending this week?

Colleen Harkin:

I’m going to go and see the kimono exhibition at NGV. I lived in Japan for a little while and the range of kimonos and what they serve, and some of them are absolutely brilliant. They’re just magnificent.

Rafael Epstein:

And I think that’s all out of the actual collection, I think.

Colleen Harkin:

I believe so.

Rafael Epstein:

[inaudible 00:09:57]

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. So over the weekend I’m going to make some time to go and do that.

Rafael Epstein:

Ra ra, the NGV. One of the best things about Victoria. Rebecca?

Rebecca Thistleton:

I’ve started watching The Paper. It’s the spin-off of The Office and it’s the same sort of humour, that doco style with the fast-moving handheld camera. It’s really dry humour. It’s really funny. I started my career working in community newspapers, so I find it hilarious from that perspective. I think though, one of the first inaccuracies that I picked up was when someone introduced themselves as being a compositor, someone that lays out the paper. And on a really poor, low-resourced paper like the one in this show is, that wouldn’t exist anymore.

Rafael Epstein:

No.

Rebecca Thistleton:

20 years ago we were doing our own layouts as well as our own sub-editing each other’s work, getting out and trying to cover stories all at the same time. And that sort of a brow-beaten, low-resourced, under-pressure vibe is otherwise running throughout the show, which makes it hilarious.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ve got a recommend for you, because we’ve spoken so much about sport. I will say this about last weekend’s preliminary finals. There were moments that transcended the game. They were moments where people did things with their bodies that were ridiculous and unbelievable. And I saw the same thing last night. This is not a stretch, this is not a joke, I went to the premiere of the Australian Ballet’s production called Prism. It is three pieces of contemporary dance. There is an Australian choreographer who has her own dance company called Stephanie Lake. I don’t think she very often works with the Australian Ballet. These are the best dancers in the country. She’s the best choreographer in the country. There are three pieces on stage. Hers is one of them. It is quite simply one of the most incredible things I have ever seen humans do, so you should go. It’s delightful and it is danced to some Bach that starts normal and ends up being distorted and twisted and modernised. If you can afford it and can get to the Australian Ballet and see Prism, it is stonkingly, stonkingly good.

Rebecca Thistleton:

And I think too, Raf, thinking about watching Patrick Dangerfield play in the midfield against the Hawks last weekend, not that long a bow to draw.

Rafael Epstein:

No. Look, there were just… It’s amazing to see elite people doing things with their bodies. It’s just the sheer, the feat of human beings doing amazing things. It can be on a footy field and it can be on a stage at the Regent Theatre as well. Rebecca Thistleton is at the McKell. Thank you, Rebecca.

Rebecca Thistleton:

Thank you.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen Harkins at the IPA.

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on ABC Melbourne Mornings from 26 September 2025 has been edited for clarity.