Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap ABC Melbourne – 3 October 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on ABC Melbourne Mornings with Justin Smith to discuss the IPA’s research on net zero.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Justin Smith:

But I can’t believe they put these two in the studio together again. Colleen Harkin is director of the Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. I nearly had to get a fire hose the last time these two were together. And Jessie McCrone is Managing Partner at FMRS Advisory and former senior advisor to Premier Daniel Andrews. Hello, Jessie. Hello, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Hello, everybody. I thought we were okay.

Jessie McCrone:

I’ve heard it makes great radio.

Colleen Harkin:

There’s no point if we agree on everything.

Justin Smith:

In my experience, troublemakers always put their hands up and say, “Oh, I didn’t know. Everything was fine last time we were together.” Everything will say. It’s great to have you here. We’re going to go through the big stories. We’re going to have a look at what made you laugh. We’ll get a culture tip later on, but please join us 1-300-222-774. Colleen Harkin, what’s one of your big stories this week?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, there’s been a few. Obviously what’s happened overnight is pretty significant in Manchester.

Justin Smith:

In Manchester, yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

And the plan for the march, another plan for another march in the march that happened last night. I think most Australians are very, very concerned about what’s happening to our social fabric. But I don’t know how we actually address that because we have a multicultural heritage, the people from all over the world who have come here for a better life, and we don’t want to see this on our streets. We want people to, regardless of our heritage differences, we want people to live in peace on our streets. And I think people are very worried about the carpet that’s being pulled out from underneath us and we don’t know how to resolve it.

Justin Smith:

Where are we seeing it manifest itself in Australia as you see it?

Colleen Harkin:

I mean, every weekend on the streets. I think people are genuinely intimidated at the tone of what’s going on the streets of Melbourne protest outside the Opera House. I think that makes people feel pretty uncomfortable. Do you not feel that?

Justin Smith:

Jessie, what do you think?

Jessie McCrone:

No, I tend to agree that the stuff coming out of Manchester last night is horrific. I think that it would be very challenging for the Jewish community to have dealt with similar attacks in Melbourne over the last two and a bit years. I also agree, sorry to upset you Justin with Colleen, that it’s a really challenging problem. It feels like an intractable problem about how do we manage through Australia is a proudly multicultural country. We have broadly been very good at separating the challenges and ongoing disputes overseas. And that there’ve been many well beyond the Middle East. There has been ongoing civil wars and those sort of things in a bunch of different countries. It does not feel in this case that we’ve been able to separate the community that lives here from the challenges with the international issues.

Justin Smith:

It’s something that’s been playing out in the United States is that this enormous divide there between the Republicans and the Democrats, it can feel like you’re not a real Republican unless you hate the Democrats and you not a real Republican unless you absolutely hate the other side. Is that something that has crept in, Colleen, onto what you were talking about? It’s not good enough just to live near each other anymore, and it’s not good enough to just openly and talk about issues, but it’s important to hate the other side now.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, there’s this kind of extreme conversation that’s entered into things. As you say, you either have to be pushed so far to the, well, let’s just say, right or left or whatever it is. It doesn’t matter. It actually doesn’t even matter what the topic is. There doesn’t seem to be an acceptance of that sort of middle ground in anything in particular, this Palestine-Israel thing. You either have to seem to be on one side or the other, and that’s very problematic. Really problematic. And to your point about politics the same is that even in Australia within the Liberal and the Labour Party and the Greens, there’s this kind of push to be an extreme person.

Justin Smith:

We didn’t really have that, did we? No. I mean I know that there’s passion around politics in Australia, but there hasn’t been that kind of hatred that we are starting to see lefties versus fascists and name-calling.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, there’s certainly been an outrage culture that seems to be growing and rage baiting about a bunch of things. And I think there is a predisposition from both extremes to scan what the other side is saying, to find things to be upset about as opposed to finding things that they agree on. I would say it is concerning when it comes to our social fabric, and I totally agree with that. I do wonder though, when it comes to our actual politics, whether we are over blowing how much we are trending towards the American kind of hatred.

I think that Labour and Liberal have always been quite defined on separate sides. In America, you’re coming from a place where crossing the floor was not an unusual thing. There was a lot more kind of across the aisle behaviour that happened in Congress. That hasn’t been broadly how the Australian system has worked. We also have compulsory voting, which is I think broadly allows the polity to return to the middle even at election time, even if not during a term. And I do think that that is something to be protected. And I do also think that it provides much better results in terms of government serving the people that it represents then in America.

Justin Smith:

So what do we need to watch out for?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I think part of the challenge here is this sort of notion of identity, identity politics and what cluster of people you think you belong to. And that instead of me being a liberal voter, I can also have some pretty strong views on social justice and all of that kind of stuff. Just because you have a particular view of the world doesn’t mean that you fit into a box. And I think we’ve done that with a lot of things with culture, with gender, with politics, identity politics is something that’s been completely unhelpful to actually having a cohesive and open discussions about some things.

Justin Smith:

I want to ask you both because you’re very good observers on this. What’s the media’s job in this now? Jessie, I’ll start with you. What do you think the media needs to or have we got it right?

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, I don’t envy the media in the sense that you do have to be responsive to what your readers want to read. And when people discuss clickbait journalism, unfortunately it is the readers that are driving that. And I have some sympathy for the media on that front. However-

Justin Smith:

If I could jump in, we were talking a bit about that with Keith Urban and Nicole Kidman. People say, “Oh, I’m sick of hearing about Keith and Nicole.” If you talk to any person who’s involved in the clicks of things, that story goes to the roof.

Jessie McCrone:

No, absolutely. And so it is a challenging thing for the media to be responsible to their readership, but also show some broader civility, some perhaps not going out of their way to make things seem like more oppositional than they actually are. And I do think that there has been a trend from the media to broadly make things seem more expansive, concerning.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s also the issue that people tend not to read anymore.

Jessie McCrone:

Well, that’s true.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s that sort of ten second grab of some piece of information.

Justin Smith:

Top line.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, correct. And it makes journalism much more difficult because no one’s prepared to read past the first line.

Justin Smith:

What can be upsetting with that is if somebody said, “Don’t give me the detail. Don’t tell me the whole thing. Just give me a line I can use against somebody I hate.” It seems to have been something that has crept into America. Look, I don’t want to read 1,500 words or something. Just tell me the top line. So when I see a Democrat in the street or a Republican in the street, I can say…

Jessie McCrone:

This is what I don’t like about you.

Colleen Harkin:

I don’t think we’re-

Justin Smith:

This is why I hate you.

Colleen Harkin:

I hope to think we’re not that bad here. I think we are still a fairly, I mean Australia is actually compared to everywhere else in the world, pretty easy going still and it’s still a great place to be and all of that kind of-

Justin Smith:

They didn’t hear your last segment. Sorry. It’s the last time I mentioned it. I apologise.

Colleen Harkin:

I brought some stats into that.

Justin Smith:

Sorry.

Colleen Harkin:

I brought some stats into that and proved Raf wrong. We are still a very relaxed community and hopefully that will be the mainstay of how things continue to roll out.

Jessie McCrone:

I think it is important though for leadership, political, community leadership though to keep an eye on that point, that we are broadly an easygoing group of people and overreacting to some of the extreme ends will naturally move Australia into a more sort of fractured, divisive culture. And I think our leadership need to be aware about when something is a real issue and when something is two ends of the spectrum, arguing with each other while the middle pays no attention.

Justin Smith:

It’s 16 past 10. It’s Justin Smith filling in for Raf. Raf is back on Monday. We’re just getting started on The Wrap. Colleen Harkin is here. Jessie McCrone is here. 1-300-222-774. Keep your calls coming. What was your big story of the week? And I know you both want to talk about nuclear power. Dan Tehan has put it, we thought it was dead and buried like a bucket of plutonium, but it’s not. The issue could well and truly be back. We’ll have a look at that in a moment.

Justin Smith:

Wrapping the news of the week 1-300-222-774, Jessie McCrone is here and Colleen Harkin. I’m sorry we’re laughing because I just warned Jessie we might talk about Dan Andrews’ statue, but we won’t. I just did that to see the look on her face. Has anyone mentioned that to you at a barbecue recently?

Colleen Harkin:

The statue, yeah. Most people’s barbecues I attend are very keen to see it built.

Justin Smith:

How rich you said very keen to see it built.

Jessie McCrone:

Oh, lordy.

Colleen Harkin:

He is entitled to it. It was a decision that was made a long time ago. It’s a waste of time.

Justin Smith:

Don’t you sound thrilled to the back teeth?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, I know. Bird suit I think goes on the top.

Justin Smith:

I can’t believe we’ve managed to bring it up. Jessie McCrone is here. Colleen Harkin is here. Nuclear power, who’d have thought we’d be talking about it after the election that was had? Colleen, do you want to go first or…

Colleen Harkin:

Look, it doesn’t surprise me that it’s back on the agenda and it should be. I think the coalition did a shocking job of selling it and got completely sucked into Labor’s narrative about energy. If we want to, if you subscribe to clean energy and net-zero 2050, you cannot do it without nuclear or at least keeping coal and gas going until there is a genuine alternative because we are not going to meet any of the targets that have been set down. It’s something like 250 million solar panels that are required and 25,000 turbines. The Victorian Parliament estimated up to 70% of Victorian agricultural land that would need to be taken over solar panels. It’s just nuts. It is crazy.

Justin Smith:

Why did the Australian people not understand that then at the-

Colleen Harkin:

Like I said-

Justin Smith:

… election?

Colleen Harkin:

I think the coalition did a terrible job of selling it. They got completely swamped with where they’re going to go, how much it’s going to cost, and all of that is totally unnecessary. All that needs to happen is four words removed out of one piece of legislation to remove the embargo.

Justin Smith:

But was it not the lack of detail that got them into trouble?

Colleen Harkin:

No, because if you look at steps like the IPA did a survey and not just us, but other people have done it as well, 18 to 24 year olds, 52% of them support nuclear, and a news poll survey said that 65% support. So there is actually public support for having it at least as part of the mix. And so I think I point the finger at the coalition of having done such a poor job of having that conversation.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, look, I have a different view in terms of the ways you can produce energy. I think that the mix is broader than solar offshore wind, onshore wind, hydro. There’s a bunch of different options. I think what I would like to take it back to is the politics of the announcement and how it was executed. At the very start when Dutton made this announcement, it broadly… the Labour Party had to crack three-eyed fish and that sort of thing, but it wasn’t an ongoing kind of discussion the Labour Party had. It wasn’t until the campaign that the Labour Party really honed their guns on this policy proposal. What I find the lesson and less about nuclear and more just about politics in general, if you are trying to communicate an idea, you do need to keep talking about it and explaining it. And I think that the opposition announced it and there was a bit of a flutter about it and then didn’t say anything about it-

Colleen Harkin:

Ran away?

Jessie McCrone:

… for a very long time. So I disagree that it was a misinformation campaign from Labour about how much it would cost and all those things that you still have to build transmission lines to this new energy source and all of those things. But if you are actually looking at it as a piece of politics, it was very poorly executed. The thing that is interesting is whether the liberal party can do a better job this time around.

Justin Smith:

Jessie, with everything you’ve seen, do you think that nuclear could be sold in any way now, or did the coalition get it so wrong in that campaign that there’s really no way that they could retool it and try and sell it?

Jessie McCrone:

Well, the interesting thing about this is they’re actually going to try because there are a bunch of policy positions that have been taken to elections that are consigned to the dustbin of history because they’ve been poorly sold. I think that there’s a bunch of tax changes Labour took in 2019 that were actually far more viable than it seemed at the time, but I suspect that’ll never come back on the agenda for Labour. And I think it is going to be an interesting thing to watch and try and sell it, particularly given they are so riven at the moment.

Justin Smith:

1-300-222-774. Colleen Harkin is here, director of the Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Jessie McCrone is managing partner at FMRS Advisory and also former senior advisor to Premier Daniel Andrews and chairperson for the Statue Committee of the… No, I’m joking.

Jessie McCrone:

I’d happily be the chair.

Justin Smith:

Would you do that?

Jessie McCrone:

Is it a paid position? I would.

Justin Smith:

So there’s another gig I can get. That’d be fantastic. 1-300 222-774. We are wrapping up the week. So the first home buyers changes, another part of that kicked in. You just need a 5% deposit now, but let’s have a listen first. I was talking with Peter Tulip, chief economist at the Centre of Independent Studies. I asked him the question about whether it’s going to be… what it’s going to do to the market, what it’s going to do to people buying their first home. This is what he said:

Peter Tulip:

The government is essentially providing home buyers with a one-way bet that if house prices keep rising, the buyer can make a lot of money, but if prices fall, then it’s the taxpayer that’s on the hook. And so that’s going to encourage risky buying and risky borrowing.

Justin Smith:

Jessie McCrone, what do you think? Good thing? Bad thing?

Jessie McCrone:

I think that there is a very clear test case for this policy that’s been run out in Victoria and it meant 11,000 people were able to get into their first home. We haven’t seen those unintended policy impacts that the federal liberal party is talking about. This is a federal policy modelled on the Victorian one. The Victorian one’s wrapped up because the federal one is beginning, and it has been very successful. I don’t think we’ve seen that kind of massive default doomsday predictions that the liberal party naturally ’cause they’re in opposition are predicting for this federal system.

Justin Smith:

There was also talk about it is the supply, there’s just not the homes there and there’s no other scheme that can take place of actually need new homes.

Jessie McCrone:

And if Labour was only talking about a shared equity scheme or a first home buyers 5% scheme, I would agree with that. But I think Labour has been pretty clear that they’ve spending quite a bit of time talking about supply, about pushing states to change policies around planning. You’ve seen the New South Wales government follow Victoria’s example when it comes to activity centres. They’ve announced some very controversial ways to get a bunch more houses built. Victoria is doing a similar thing. I think the supply problem is going to take a while. We are really behind the 8-ball, but I don’t see why we can’t use a suite of policy solutions. It is a wicked problem, the housing market, and I don’t think one solution is going to solve it.

Justin Smith:

Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

See, I think it’s quite a disingenuous kind of approach to things because the federal government… the only real lever the federal government has is over immigration because that’s what’s keeping housing prices up. So I agree with you, Jess, in terms of at the moment, people who have entered in with very low deposit rates, which means that over the period of time they’re paying a lot more back on that same loan, and there hasn’t been the default scenario, but that’s because housing prices have kept up because of the pressure on supply scenario. And it’s only state government and councils who really have the jurisdiction to make any difference in the supply scenario. Now, last week, Ralph gave me a hard time and said my stats were wrong and I’ve brought in from the ABS the stats on immigration and it’s 110,000-

Justin Smith:

Well, you’ll have to take that up with [inaudible 00:08:14] him in another time.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I’ve brought-

Justin Smith:

Sorry.

Colleen Harkin:

No, no, no, I’ve brought it in-

Justin Smith:

No, I’m just kidding.

Colleen Harkin:

… so it’s a million people in the last three years. So if we’re bringing in a net overseas migration of a million people in three years, of course, there’s going to be pressure on housing. And so-

Jessie McCrone:

Just to contextualise that a little bit, obviously we had a two-year period where we had basically zero migration.

Colleen Harkin:

No, but I brought the stats in for you.

Jessie McCrone:

Oh, no, no. I’m actually not disagreeing with the million-

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, so this issue of-

Jessie McCrone:

… rate. I’m just saying over a five-year period, it looks a little different when we had two years of no migration, but go on.

Colleen Harkin:

No. Well, I won’t get down to stats again because we did that last time. But when you have that pressure on the supply scenario, you’re not going to be able to… The economics of these people with a 5% loan is actually very risky, and over the period of the loan, they pay back a lot more, exponentially more on that same loan. It’s state governments and councils that have the jurisdiction to open up more land. To your point, Jess, that’s a very long and slow process because of the amount of red tape and bureaucracy that’s involved in it. So I see it as a bit of smoke and mirrors.

Jessie McCrone:

I think that the accusation that’s being made about this programme, about you’re making a bet about whether your house prices go up or down, first-time buyers are making that bet with or without the government scheme. Houses are expensive and you are spending more than you can afford to buy one, and you are… Essentially, as soon as you are in the housing market, you are hoping that housing prices stay up. For Australians for a long time, that has basically been their retirement plan, that they have value of their house will go up and they’ll sell it and downsize and they’ll have a lot of money for their retirement. So this idea that first home buyers getting into the market is now some sort of gamble. I think that has been the case for the system, whether there’s been [inaudible 00:10:06]

Colleen Harkin:

It’s not getting into the market as a gamble. It’s the amount of monthly repayments. What is your deposit and what can you actually afford to serve. That’s the difference.

Jessie McCrone:

I personally trust a government more than a bank to be able to assess whether you can afford something or not.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s an interesting point.

Justin Smith:

Just before you go, something that made you laugh, if we could do that quickly. Colleen, what made you laugh?

Colleen Harkin:

So I have never heard of this before, but there’s a thing called Backyard Ultra, and these guys run 6.7 kilometres on the hour every hour. And they have to finish within that hour and then just do it again and again and again and again and it’s a dropout. And this guy called Akira Barzaghi just did 362 kilometres basically without stopping. Who does that? I think God made cars for those distances, didn’t he? And there’s a [inaudible 00:10:59]

Jessie McCrone:

And no change of scenery.

Colleen Harkin:

No, right? It’s just they set up a lap and you run around 6.7 kilometres and you have to front up every hour, and when you can’t do it anymore, it’s just a dropout. It’s last man standing and there’s a guy called Phil Gore who ran 543 kilometres without stopping.

Justin Smith:

I think the sooner we realise this, the better, there is somebody for every activity in the world. If you come up with an activity, someone-

Colleen Harkin:

There’d be people who’d do this.

Justin Smith:

… someone’s going to do it. Something that made you laugh?

Jessie McCrone:

Mine’s far low brow. I’m being served on the internet at the moment a bunch of videos from ’90s TV shows about clairvoyance and I’m finding them-

Justin Smith:

And you’re loving it.

Jessie McCrone:

… incredibly amusing.

Justin Smith:

You are loving it. I’m going to ask you a culture tip in a moment, but Denise is in Footscray about nuclear power. Hi, Denise.

Denise:

Oh, hi there. Thanks for giving me a couple of seconds to talk about this. I’m betting the person that you’ve got on that’s spooking the benefits of nuclear power as clean, cheap, and safe has never actually experienced the downsides of nuclear power. I went to university in Scotland. I was in Aberdeen when Chernobyl went up. We all copped a dose of it. Thanks very much to Russia. And I’m just disturbed that there’s this idea that it’s a clean, cheap, safe option. It’s not. It’s expensive, it’s dirty and it’s dangerous.

Justin Smith:

Yeah, that the danger’s not being talked about.

Colleen Harkin:

Can I just respond to that? Anyone who lives in New South Wales lives near one. Anyone who’s been to Paris is within 20 minutes of a nuclear reactor. Sure, what’s happened at Chernobyl was completely problematic, but there are hundreds of nuclear reactors around the world. It is clean, safe. Sure, it’s expensive, but so is renewable energy.

Justin Smith:

We’ll take one last caller ’cause I think this has got to get in. Bernadette from Footscray. Hi, Bernadette.

Bernadette:

Hi. I just wanted to take a opinion and heard you talking about politics in the States and how Australia seems to be a more relaxed society. And then I heard your two guests from the opposite political spectrum things being very civil and then even having a laugh together. And I thought, “I love this place.”

Justin Smith:

What a gorgeous call, Bernadette. Thank you very much. See, this is why we’re terrific. If the rest of the world would listen to this segment and realise-

Colleen Harkin:

The world would be a better place.

Jessie McCrone:

I think that’s right.

Justin Smith:

This is how you disagree. This is how you disagree. Culture tip, Colleen, what are you watching in this [inaudible 00:13:26]

Colleen Harkin:

I’ve got something completely lowbrow this week. A movie called Wrong Paris, it’s like a pathetically enjoyable rom-com about… I won’t go into too much detail. It was about a girl who enters into a reality show to try and meet a bloke and ends up… I won’t give it away, but it’s pathetic-

Justin Smith:

But you like it.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, it’s just a way to sit on the couch for an hour and a half and do nothing, not even think.

Justin Smith:

Damn right. Jessie?

Jessie McCrone:

I’m a proud millennial who will be continuing her parasocial relationship with a billionaire at 2:00 today when Taylor Swift releases her next album.

Justin Smith:

Oh, you’re one of them.

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, wow.

Jessie McCrone:

Please do not call me. Do not talk to me. I will be spending hopefully longer than 40 minutes because she’ll sneakily release a second album. But that is what I’ll be doing at 2:00 today.

Justin Smith:

And at 2:00 today, Colleen, you will be what?

Colleen Harkin:

I’ll be working. I’ll be doing some research.

Justin Smith:

Yeah, you’re both wonderful. Thank you very much for coming in.

Jessie McCrone:

Thank you.

Colleen Harkin:

Thank you.

Justin Smith:

Colleen Harkin is Director of the Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Jessie McCrone is Managing Partner at FMRS Advisory and former Senior Advisor to Premier Daniel Andrews 29 to 11:00. Coming up, fantastic film on the Italian Film Festival. It’s on at the Italian Film Festival right now. And then it’s going to be at other cinemas. It’s a ripper and it’s very much about Melbourne. We’ll talk about that and the bloke who is going to play Neil Diamond in the big musical that is coming to Melbourne. A thumbs up, thumbs… Neil Diamond fans? Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

Love Neil.

Jessie McCrone:

Sure, yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

No, he’s fabulous.

Jessie McCrone:

He’s great.

Colleen Harkin:

He’s great for sing along.

Justin Smith:

This is big for Melbourne. Was Taylor Swift big for Melbourne? Actually, yes, she was. She was enormous.

Jessie McCrone:

Yes. Yes, she was.

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on ABC Melbourne Mornings from 3 October 2025 has been edited for clarity.