Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap ABC Radio Melbourne – 20 June 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne and discussed the IPA’s research on Australia’s taxation system.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Rafael Epstein:

Good morning. Plenty to talk about this week, not the least of which is what is going on in the Middle East: Israel’s significant strike against Iran, Iran’s retaliation, and whether or not America gets involved, whether or not Britain gets involved. Britain’s got military bases that would need to be used if America started to bomb Iran’s nuclear programme. So, what does that mean for us? We are allies with America as well.

There’s plenty going on inside the Liberal Party here in Victoria and we got the first inkling this week, we got the first inkling of what Anthony Albanese might do with his significant majority. There was a big speech by the Treasurer of Jim Chalmers. We may well be seeing the beginnings of what they actually do in their second term. Here to chew through the news of the week is Emma Dawson. She’s Executive Director of the Chifley Research Centre, the official think tank for the Labour Party. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And we’re also joined by Colleen Harkin. She’s the Director of the Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs, and she sits on that committee that made that decision for the Liberal Party last night. Colleen, great to have you here.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning, Raf. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And Colleen’s been hiding her light under a bushel, because I didn’t know for some time that she was on the Admin Committee, but here we go. I just want to play a little bit of what Brad Battin had to say. There was a situation, just to catch you up. You might remember John Pesutto sued for defamation because of what he said as leader about Moira Deeming. She won, he lost. He had a massive bill, millions of dollars. If he didn’t pay, he’d be bankrupt. If you’re bankrupt, he can’t sit in Parliament. Would the Liberal Party bail him out? It took them a long time, but last night that committee decided they would give a commercial rate loan to John Pesutto. So, that’s a decision made by a 19-member committee of which Colleen is one. I’ll ask her about it. But Brad Battin did say he voted for the Liberal Party to lend John Pesutto that money. Here he is.

Brad Battin:

I supported a motion last night to go through this process now. So, we are now in a position that we can eventually clear this out and start to move in the direction we want to go.

Rafael Epstein:

Now, the other issue, before I ask Colleen about this, is that Moira Deeming put out a tweet last night saying, “This is what institutional abuse looks like.” Now, there’s a long backstory to the language behind that, but you don’t need to know the history to know that Moira Deeming doesn’t sound very happy. I did ask Brad Battin about that. And I guess the question beyond the history of the tweet and the language, how do you bring a party together if one of your MPs is tweeting things like that. Here he is.

Brad Battin:

We can eventually clear this out and start to move in the direction we want to go.

Rafael Epstein:

So, you did support the idea of the loan to John Pesutto?

Brad Battin:

Yeah, I’ve just stated that. So, we actually put the line in the sand on that and now we really have to focus on moving forward.

Rafael Epstein:

Does it sound like Moira Deeming’s focused on those issues when she tweets late at night, “This is what institutional abuse looks like.”

Brad Battin:

Yeah, look, I’ll have discussions and I’ve always said that. With anything like those, I’ll have private discussions with my colleagues, but as I said-

Rafael Epstein:

Are you okay with her tweeting that?

Brad Battin:

Oh, look, as I said, I’ve got to go through the process now of having the discussion.

Rafael Epstein:

So, how does Brad Battin paper over the cracks? I will ask Emma soon, but let’s start with you, Colleen. What did you think of the motion that was passed last night?

Colleen Harkin:

The easy ones first, hey?

Rafael Epstein:

Yep.

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I have always stood on the side of Moira’s right to free speech. So, from the beginning, to me it was never been an issue of trans or not trans because that’s obviously a delicate situation. Everyone has their thoughts and rights on that, but I’ve always stood on the side of Moira for her right to speak freely and for those women to also to be able to express their concerns publicly about what’s going on in that space. So, I obviously can’t go into the detail of the machinations of last night’s meeting, but-

Rafael Epstein:

Do you want to tell us which way you voted?

Colleen Harkin:

I’m happy to say I voted no.

Rafael Epstein:

Why?

Colleen Harkin:

Because, well, for the reasons that I just said, that her right to free speech, that the scenario that it went through about the… It was found by a court on five cases of defamation, so the allegation was clear. I understand people’s concern that you don’t sue the leader, but there was also previous issues that were going on as to why that actually even happened in the first place. So, the ambition I would say to you is to clear the air and to move on and to avoid a by-election. That sort of, I think is high-

Rafael Epstein:

Did you accept that argument, that it was important? You clearly didn’t accept that argument.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, to my way of thinking, it is what it is. And so you face the by-election and you win or you lose, and that’s also a way of getting clear air in my view. So, I personally wasn’t so concerned about that. I know clearly a lot of other people have been, but that’s also a way to draw a line in the sand and move forward to either Pesutto would win the seat or he wouldn’t, or a new candidate would win or lose that or he couldn’t.

Rafael Epstein:

But if we had a by-election, he would not have contested.

Colleen Harkin:

But you’d win or lose it.

Rafael Epstein:

Someone else.

Colleen Harkin:

Party’s not supposed to be about individual personality people. It’s a brand and you represent a brand. So, I don’t sort of subscribe to that individual element of all of this. I’m more interested in the branding of the party, what it stands for, governance and all of those sorts of things.

Rafael Epstein:

Are you upset by what happened last night?

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, upset’s… Look, I think the rank-and-file members out who do the hard yards and pave the concrete and that sort of stuff, I think they’ll be pretty surprised. I think there’ll be a lot of conversation.

Rafael Epstein:

Will they be angry?

Colleen Harkin:

There’ll definitely be people who are cross. To use John Howard’s words, the Liberal Party is definitely a very broad church with lots of strong opinions amongst it. So, we don’t operate an internal unified way, if I can say that. It is very-

Rafael Epstein:

Can I be rude?

Colleen Harkin:

Sure.

Rafael Epstein:

It doesn’t sound like a broad church. It sounds like a church that’s blowing itself up.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I think you actually have to sometimes go through the blowups in order to work out who you are and what you stand for. I do genuinely believe that. And I think now with the Federal Election result as well, it is a time for the Liberal Party to actually shake itself off and work out who it is and what it stands for, and to offer a genuine alternative to people, because I think electorates are looking for an alternative and they just haven’t been sure that the party provides that at the moment.

Rafael Epstein:

And I’m asking you these questions because you’re on that Administrative Committee and people might not also realise, there’s no state committee and a federal committee. This is the thing in Victoria that does both federal and state politics, or you have a role in those things.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, there is a Federal Administrative Committee as well that runs federal component, but it’s effectively like a board.

Rafael Epstein:

[inaudible 00:07:05] was like the character of the state party. It sounds to me like you think the party’s missed an opportunity to go through some sort of cleansing or sort itself out. Do you feel like that’s the result?

Colleen Harkin:

I think no matter which way the answer went, half the people were going to be disappointed because there was no clear avenue for a genuine resolution with this. It was a complete mess from the beginning that went on for a couple of years, and they just got worse. Every day, it just got worse. And so-

Rafael Epstein:

Did Brad Battin do the right thing?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, he’s got to move forward with a cohesive team of MPs, so-

Rafael Epstein:

You don’t have to answer, but I do have to ask, do you think Brad Battin did the right thing by voting for that solution?

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, can I abstain from that question?

Rafael Epstein:

You can.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. I think from a party’s point of view, we’ve got a year and a half to an election and the state government is… We need to change the government for all sorts of reasons, and so the party has got to get its act together.

Rafael Epstein:

Can I push a friendship? I’ll ask you the question in a slightly different way. Do you think Brad Battin’s going to be leader at the next election?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I think if they get their act together and they work on policy development and core values and offer a genuine alternative, yes, because I think people are screaming out for a… They want to change the government, but they’ve got to have something to vote for.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen Harkin’s with us. She joins us each fortnight with Emma Dawson. Colleen’s at the IPA, Emma’s at the Chifley Research Centre, but Colleen was also a part of that Administrative Committee vote. Emma, without taking gross advantage of a party clearly in pain, what do you make of it?

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, I’m no schadenfreude here. It’s a mess, and it’s a mess not just for the party, but for the people of Victoria. I’m partisan. I’m a Labour voter, Labour member, but the system relies on having a good, strong opposition, and I think this has been a really unfortunate situation across the board. I like John Pesutto. I think the challenge for the Liberal Party in particular is John’s probably more electable than a lot of their other leading candidates in the broader electorate.

Rafael Epstein:

He’s got the Turnbull problem, doesn’t he, that people inside the Liberal Party feel he is not a real liberal.

Emma Dawson:

Yep, yep. And he is a real liberal. He’s a genuine liberal with a small L liberal, and I think he’s a thoughtful guy. I don’t think it was very thoughtful what he said about Moira Deeming. I think it was a mistake. I also… Can we do an entire programme on Australia’s defamation laws and how terrible they are-

Rafael Epstein:

Not right now.

Emma Dawson:

… how abused they are? But so I do think it would’ve been a loss to the party to lose John Pesutto as it was a loss to the Liberal Party to lose Malcolm Turnbull. And it’s a loss to Australia if we lose politicians that are genuinely thoughtful people that do think about policy, that do try to understand and connect to the electorate and do try to bring their party into the Modern Age.

Rafael Epstein:

There’s lots to talk about this week. I want to ask you one more question, Colleen. It’s a bit weird, isn’t it, if the Liberal Party makes money out of the loan to John Pesutto? It’s lent at a commercial rate of interest, does that pass the pub test?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, you couldn’t just lend a person one and a half million bucks with no-

Rafael Epstein:

You’re making money out of him.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, if he’s borrowing one and a half million dollars, then you’ve got to have… It’s not a gift. He can’t just be given one and a half million dollars. So, it is-

Emma Dawson:

It could be an interest free loan though. That’s not a gift.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I think it’ll be difficult enough for the members to accept it, let alone [inaudible 00:10:52].

Emma Dawson:

It’s not fiscal discipline [inaudible 00:10:54]. That would be not fiscal discipline from the Liberal Party, would it?

Rafael Epstein:

I think the fact that it’s a loan in interest, maybe that reflects actually the division over the solution, maybe perhaps. I don’t know if I’m reading too much into it. Plenty more to talk about in the news this week, if you want to have your say about that issue. But there’s a war going on and we’ve potentially had a peek at what the Federal Government might actually do in its second term, so we’ll get to that in a moment.

ABC Voiceover:

This is ABC Radio Melbourne with Raf Epstein.

Rafael Epstein:

1300-222-774 is the phone number. Trisha’s got this, “The Liberal Party said they want to move on. Why are the media perpetuating the issue? Why incite angst?” I guess that’s aimed at me. And someone else, Steve Impressen, “They couldn’t win a chook raffle even if they bought every ticket.” And just before I get onto the other issues, we’ve got a traffic alert here. There’s an aggregate spillage on the M80 on the Ring Road going north. All lanes heavily contaminated in slow traffic. So, let us know a bit more about that. Ring Road going north, all lanes heavily contaminated in slow traffic. If you see that, give us a bit more of an idea about what exit that is close to. Colleen, why don’t I shift our attention to the story for which there are no answers, I suspect. How do you read what’s going on between Israel and Iran?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, there’s obviously sort of centuries of history behind it, so I don’t know how there is actually a resolution to this in the short term. Iran has never been a good responsible international actor, and it has publicly stated its desire to obliterate Israel repeatedly. And no country can ignore that sort of threat. It represses its people. It is a theocratic autocracy. And so I don’t see any other resolution to this other than Israel’s right to defend itself and that moving forward, the idea of Iran having nuclear bombs is pretty terrifying-

Rafael Epstein:

But we don’t know what they’ve got. How much… I guess my question to both of you might be… We have no idea what Iran has. It’s true that the UN Watchdog has expressed concern that it hasn’t expressed for some time, but there’s a big distance between concern about a level of enrichment and actually having something you can stick on a warhead. America didn’t think they had weapons. Israel’s decided on their own. Israel has decided on their own. Emma, I’ll ask you and I’ll come back to you, Colleen, is that a problem?

Emma Dawson:

In international law, it is, yeah. The right to defend itself… I agree with Israel’s right to defend itself, let’s be clear about that. But under international law, it has to be against an imminent threat, not the threat of a threat or the suspicion of a threat. So, from a purely legal… International law is a strange beast. It’s cobbled together from a number of different countries and views and through the UN, but yes, it’s a problem that Israel decides to act unilaterally. Having said that, there are some strange bedfellows on the left. As a feminist, it’s pretty hard to have any sympathy for the regime in Iran. It is, as Colleen said, a theocratic state, and it has clearly an voiced its intentions not only to destroy Israel, but to establish an Islamic caliphate in the region. But yet this is a centuries-old conflict.

Rafael Epstein:

I would question if it’s a centuries-old conflict. I don’t think it’s true to say it’s a centuries-old conflict. I don’t think that’s true.

Emma Dawson:

Well, it’s rooted in a centuries-old conflict.

Rafael Epstein:

Is it?

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, I think, the ideologies that are at play and a lot of the-

Rafael Epstein:

Nationalism is a 19th century ideology.

Emma Dawson:

Well, yeah, but that’s been overlaid onto some very old tribal identities and intercultural conflicts. So, it’s played out through the nation-state and the UN and everyone’s got their own beliefs there.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m not going to pick that particular historical bone with you, but let me shift to something very retail, but potentially very important. Colleen, does it matter if the PM hasn’t had a meeting with Donald Trump? Is there anything Australia can do about it, or is it just a completely… Is it actually the world’s at war, we don’t need to worry about it? What do you think?

Colleen Harkin:

I’m never one to give a lot of cred to Albanese, but I do think it’s been a bit of a blowup that he didn’t get to meet him. There was a big issue at stake, and so being sidelined for a cup of coffee with him with Trump, I don’t see that as being material.

Emma Dawson:

No, it’s not.

Colleen Harkin:

But I do think that in Australia we have to be very careful that this doesn’t kind of spill into our kind of cultural radar and a division in our social cohesion because we have to be-

Rafael Epstein:

Well, it’s there already, isn’t it?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, definitely elements of it, and I think we’re in dangerous territory. We have to be really steadfast and diligent about making sure that our own values are upheld because if we take on all of the world’s problems… We’re a very multiethnic country, and if we take on everybody else’s problems, we are dead.

Emma Dawson:

Colleen Harkin with progressive patriotism, folks. Fantastic to hear. I love it. I love it.

Rafael Epstein:

1300-222-774 is the phone number. I want to know if you… Does it matter if he doesn’t get a meeting? On the one hand, it’d be good to get a meeting. On the other hand, he’s a completely unreliable interlocutor, the US President.

Emma Dawson:

What are we going to get out of the meeting, right? Some vague [inaudible 00:16:57].

Rafael Epstein:

Doesn’t mean you don’t try for one. It doesn’t mean you don’t try for one. You still got to try and meet with him, of course.

Emma Dawson:

Of course. It’s part of the-

Rafael Epstein:

It’s a policy and process-free administration, which is terrifying, but it doesn’t mean you don’t try for a meeting. But I want to try and focus on something, because while the Federal Liberal Party is also going through the pain of its post-election loss because they just got so smashed, we have not focused that all on what Anthony Albanese is going to do. Emma, I’ll go to you because this is your tribe. Jim Chalmers gave you a speech. They’re going to have a very limited consultation. It’s a roundtable and it’s in the cabinet room. Can’t fit many people in the cabinet room, right?

Emma Dawson:

About 25. Yep.

Rafael Epstein:

So, what is Jim Chalmers doing and how ambitious will they be?

Emma Dawson:

Well, if you listen to or watched his speech at the press club on Wednesday, and if you haven’t, may I suggest you do [inaudible 00:17:49], it’s not just… There’s a productivity roundtable in August 19th to 21st, about 25 people. Very small group in the cabinet room, but that’s part of what the Treasurer was pretty clear was a bigger process. And what I’m, because I’m a nerd, excited about is that it’s just an approach to genuine economic reform. What the Treasurer said was, “Can we all bring our best selves to the table, please? Can we stop the rule in, rule out?” I think it was Andrew Probyn tried to get him to rule out action on the GST and he said, “Look, historically not attracted to that, but I’m not going to shoot down ideas.”

Rafael Epstein:

He also said, “If you want to contribute to this debate, you’ve got to bring the same thing a minister needs to bring to this debate.”

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

“If you’re going to spend here, what are you cutting there, or if you’re going to cut here, where are you going to spend?”

Emma Dawson:

That’s right, that’s right. It’s going to have to be either budget neutral or budget positive importantly. And this is where we’re going to run into issues because the opposition spokesperson for finance has said… James Patterson has said, “Well, we’re open to talk about tax reform, but no new taxes and no tax increases.” We have a budget revenue problem into the foreseeable future, so we actually do need to raise more revenue to fund the services and the defence spending because-

Rafael Epstein:

Where are they going to get it from?

Emma Dawson:

That’s right. But what’s exciting is this is a government, I would say for the first time in 25 years that is saying to the Australian people, “A, what we were elected to do, we will do, but it’s not the limits of our ambition. We were elected to govern.

Emma Dawson:

Can we stop the rule it in, rule it out? You didn’t take it to an election and have a mature conversation about what kind of country we want to be and how we’re going to fund the path to get there. I think young people in particular are thinking, “This is actually a chance to look at the economic settings in this country and say, ‘Have we got them right, so that we’ve got the same opportunity for social mobility, for setting up a life, for buying a house, for having a good job as our parents and grandparents had?'” It’s something that is so overdue and that I personally have been agitating for so long. Yes, Raf. Raf’s laughing at me and so is Colleen.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m not laughing.

Emma Dawson:

I’m very excited.

Rafael Epstein:

I have genuine curiosity and I’ve spoken to people at the top of the federal government, “What are you going to do?” And they say, “We need a process, this is their process-“

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

… “And none of us know where it’ll end up.”

Emma Dawson:

But that’s actually how good policy works, right? This idea that you come up with everything as a part of an election campaign and then that’s all you do. That’s not how good governments work. Governments look at what’s needed for the country and they engage with experts, they engage with the community, they engage with voters and with the opposition, and say, “How are we going to get there?” It can be messy, but they’ve got a big enough majority now that I think there’s a chance to do it, and I’m excited.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, I want to know what you think, and I just want to preface it with this. There is a rare moment after an election where politics is not as hot. It is not nearly as furious, usually only lasts about six months. Is there a window for something genuine, do you think? Is that possible?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I think I agree with Emma in terms of the opportunity for good policy, and now is the time to do it. Any party should be doing the homework now and then, by the time the election is around, they’ve already got their homework, they’ve got their lines worked out, they know exactly what they’re doing in that last year. Yes, I agree that now is the time and I agree that Chalmers’ identification of productivity is the most important issue, and it was the buzzword of his speech. What he didn’t acknowledge is that he hinted at no longer being able to rely on royalties of fossil fuels, but what he didn’t acknowledge is the government’s own war on affordable and reliable energy that’s killing the golden goose. He’s, on the one hand, saying-

Emma Dawson:

Well, it’s climate change that’s killing the golden goose, I think.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, can we have a whole session on climate change?

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t want to shut you down, but I’ve only got a few amendments. I understand where you’re coming from or I know what your views are on that, but what I want to know from you, and nothing wrong with having the view, do you think it’s possible for this government to achieve something really big on tax? Is the political process going to let them… Are they good enough to do that?

Colleen Harkin:

They’ve got the numbers, right? They’ve got the numbers to do it, so there’s no doubt that they have the capacity to make change. Whether they make the change that is actually better for the nation in the longer term remains to be seen, and I don’t want to sound too cynical, but-

Rafael Epstein:

No, you don’t have to be cynical.

Colleen Harkin:

… but the idea of sitting around a table with 25 people in a talk fest is not what business needs. Business wants government to get out of their way and to have a scenario where they’re not smothered in red tape and compliance.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ll come back to it in a minute. Can this government do something big? Do you think they… I’m asking you-

Colleen Harkin:

If they’ve got the mindset to do something big? Is that what you’re asking me?

Rafael Epstein:

If they’ve got the skill.

Colleen Harkin:

No.

Emma Dawson:

Absolutely they do.

Colleen Harkin:

No.

Emma Dawson:

This is the most talented front bench since Hawke. You look at the economic portfolio, not only have you got-

Rafael Epstein:

That’s a big call, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

It is, but I’ve done my homework, and yes, I’m slightly biassed, but I’ve done my homework. Not only have you got Dr. Jim Chalmers in the role of treasurer, you’ve got Andrew Leigh is the Minister for Productivity and Competition and assistant to treasurer, PhD in economics. You’ve got Dan Mulino as assistant treasurer, PhD in economics. You’ve got Andrew Charlton as the assistant minister for the digital economy, PhD in economics, and we’re talking-

Colleen Harkin:

And how many people-

Rafael Epstein:

Let her finish, let her finish and then you-

Emma Dawson:

Then you’ve got very talented people around that, Claire O’Neill in housing, in these economic portfolios. Anna Lee, small business. There are really bold and clever people around that table, and they do have an ambition for reform. You’ve also got to remember that this is… They’re younger, they’re slightly younger. They’re not boomers, they’re Gen X ministers. They’re deeply concerned about the impact of our current economic system on young people and their ability to get ahead, and they know that a lot of these changes are overdue, and that because of climate change, because the world is moving away from fossil fuels, a big part of our resource base goes with it, so we have to talk about what’s next. I do think they can do it. I’m not a cynic, though. I’m an optimist, always have been, and I do think that this is our biggest chance to do real tax reform that we’ve had for 25 years.

Colleen Harkin:

There’s no doubt that somebody who has a PhD is a clever person, I’m not disputing that. But how many of those people have actually worked in business? That’s the difference, is the amount of political full-time staffers, career politicians that are in the Labour Party who actually haven’t run a business, they don’t actually understand what it’s like.

Emma Dawson:

Andrew Charlton set up his own advisory business and made millions of dollars selling it to the private sector.

Colleen Harkin:

But in terms of the amount of people who are in the Labour Party, they’re not business people, and business don’t want government to do their job for them. Business just want government to get out of the way.

Rafael Epstein:

John Howard and Paul Keating were business people. They did big things.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Colleen Harkin:

But there’s one person at the party, right?

Rafael Epstein:

I’m asking you to assess them as politicians.

Emma Dawson:

As politicians, I think they’ve got capacity, and I don’t-

Colleen Harkin:

We’re actually trying to talk about what the policy is.

Emma Dawson:

The one important thing here, productivity is not just an issue for business. This is not just a debate for business. We need to have not just the labour movement, but civil society and voters at the table as well, because what’s the point of productivity? It’s to lift living standards, and if it’s just left to business, that doesn’t necessarily happen, because they’re about profit.

Colleen Harkin:

But you can’t lift living standards, unless… You can’t lift living standards unless business is doing well.

Emma Dawson:

Of course you can’t, but-

Colleen Harkin:

A business has to do well, and unless you have the capacity to keep what you create, there’s no incentive to-

Emma Dawson:

You’ve got to grow that pie.

Colleen Harkin:

Business has to be given the freedom to get on and innovate, because government are not the innovators, it’s people and business.

Emma Dawson:

No, but government is responsible for designing and regulating markets, so that not only are we sharing the fruits of that productivity, not just through redistribution, but through pre-distribution, through designing markets, so that the economic activity is going where it’s needed.

Colleen Harkin:

That sounds a lot like the redistribution of wealth, and this whole scenario-

Emma Dawson:

Our entire tax and transfer system is redistributing.

Colleen Harkin:

Let’s just be really clear about that.

Emma Dawson:

Let’s be really clear that we are taxing effort, we are taxing work, young people, from their labour, much more highly than we are taxing the accumulated wealth of people that don’t work at all. That is antithetical to social mobility.

Rafael Epstein:

We’re back to taxing wealth and not income, I think.

Emma Dawson:

Absolutely. Well, a bit of both.

Rafael Epstein:

A bit of both, but also-

Emma Dawson:

We tax wealth very badly in this country.

Rafael Epstein:

Understood, but the Victorian government’s just tried to tax wealth and didn’t go well. That’s my very cynical-

Emma Dawson:

Is it going to be hard? Anything worth doing is hard.

Rafael Epstein:

When you say-

Colleen Harkin:

Anything worth doing is hard and, when you do it, they take it away from you. You have to give people the freedom to innovate.

Rafael Epstein:

Five-second response, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

1940s, Labour reinvented the economy. 1980s, Labour reinvented the economy. 2020s, it’s time to do it again. At no point in those previous histories was the opposition particularly helpful, so I hope they will be more so this time, because this challenge is a national challenge, and we’ve got a whole generation of young people that are losing faith in democracy, because they don’t think it works for them.

Rafael Epstein:

Final word, Colleen. I’ll take you guys past the headlines for your culture. Share a final response?

Colleen Harkin:

I think it’s true, that young people are losing faith and they actually… 50% of young Australians think that socialism is the best form of government, that’s because-

Rafael Epstein:

IPA’s in trouble. Just saying.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s because they don’t really understand that the government owning the productivity is not in their best interest.

Rafael Epstein:

The government. There’s so many things I want to dive into, the pre-distribution government owning the productivity. These guys are going to hang around, because I want to know, when they’re not thinking about this stuff, and what an amazing discussion, I want to what they do for their downtime. I’ll give you some information about that traffic problem, the Ring Road as well, but let’s get some news headlines with Mary McDonnell. Hi there, Mary.

ABC Voiceover:

This is ABC Radio Melbourne with Raf Epstein.

Rafael Epstein:

I just want to give you some more info about the Ring Road. This is between Ballarat Road, Furlong Road. On the Ring Road, looks like a load of loose dry rocks aggregates spilled on the northbound lanes. The lanes aren’t blocked, but the speed is slowed. The Department of Transport tells us the clean-up crews are on the way, so that is on the ring road between Ballarat Road and Furlong Road, northbound. A whole lot of loose dry rock aggregate or something similar. They’re on the way to clean it up. Also, in Glen Waverley, there’s a big problem. Intersection of Springvale and Waverley roads, there’s a crash blocking two northbound lanes, and also all eastbound lanes at the intersection. That’s Glen Waverley intersection of Springvale and Waverley, a crash blocking two northbound lanes and all eastbound lanes as well. Colleen, when you’re not brushing up on your as-yet-to-be-completed PhD, you are reading or watching what?

Colleen Harkin:

Because I always go on about energy, I thought a book that I’ve just started reading by Robert Bryce, called A Question of Power: Electricity and the Wealth of a Nations, but on a lighter note, I did go to the NGV Impressionist exhibition, and it’s fabulous and I would give it a plug. It’s terrific. The only thing I’ll say, a tip to people, is to take your own earplugs, your plug-ins.

Rafael Epstein:

Do it through your phone.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, when you buy the audio, they don’t provide you with the earpiece. Had I have known that, I would’ve taken some earpieces, but I didn’t know. Well, we’ve seen.

Rafael Epstein:

How amazing is just the creation walls?

Colleen Harkin:

The fit out is magnificent, the ambience that they’ve created is fabulous.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s quite extraordinary.

Emma Dawson:

Can’t wait.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma, yours?

Emma Dawson:

I haven’t seen it yet, because it’s not out, but I think it comes out on Sunday or Monday. It’s called Outrageous, and it’s a dramatisation of the Mitford family, the Mitford sisters in Britain-

Rafael Epstein:

Who were they?

Emma Dawson:

They were a very famous aristocratic family of, I think, six sisters. Nancy Mitford was the writer that chronicled their lives in thinly-disguised novel form. Fascinating family.

Rafael Epstein:

This is like World War II time?

Emma Dawson:

World War II time. One of them was Diana Mosley, married Oswald Mosley, she was a fascist. Unity was rumoured to have had an affair with Hitler. Then there were Dave and others, and there were socialists in the family. When I was growing up, they had a series called Love in the Cold Climate, which was on the ABC on Sunday nights, and I used to watch it as a child.

Rafael Epstein:

Was that based on the Mitfords?

Emma Dawson:

It was based on the Mitfords. It was one of Nancy’s novels, and loved it. I’m looking forward to watching Outrageous. Well, I think it’s on BritBox.

Rafael Epstein:

It is BritBox, actually. Siobhan Darkart, TV writer, she has seen it. Loves it.

Emma Dawson:

Well, if Siobhan likes it, I’ll like it.

Rafael Epstein:

She’s a previewer, so yeah, no, it’s supposed to be very, very good.

Emma Dawson:

Can’t wait.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma Dawson’s with the Chifley Research Centre, Colleen Harkin is with the Institute of Public Affairs, and we think still with the admin committee of the Liberal Party.

Colleen Harkin:

Maybe not.

Rafael Epstein:

Thank you both very much for coming in. Appreciate you coming in.

Emma Dawson:

Thank you. Thanks, Colleen.

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne 6 June 2025 has been edited for clarity.