Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 11 July 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne and discussed the IPA’s research on red tape.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Justin Smith:

Well, let’s do it. Let’s wrap up the news of the week. What was your big story? What do you want to talk about? 1-300-222-774. Don’t hold it in. Let it out. 1-300-222-774. And on the wrap this week, it’s a pleasure to welcome Colleen Harkin, who is Director of Schools Programmes at the Institute of Public Affairs. Hi, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning.

Justin Smith:

Wonderful to see you. And Jessie McCrone is the managing partner at FMRS Advisory and former senior advisor to Premier Daniel Andrews.

Jessie McCrone:

Thank you, Justin. And you did a much better job than Raf getting that name out. He stumbles over every time.

Justin Smith:

What does he get… What does he-

Jessie McCrone:

F- F- r- r- rs.

Justin Smith:

Oh, he does that, does he? He does the… I would’ve thought most people would’ve stumbled over Senior Advisor to former Senior Advisor to Daniel Andrews. What kind of reaction does one get when one says that at a barbecue?

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, I might tell you that. There are a lot of questions. People are just absolutely fascinated by the man.

Justin Smith:

Oh, tell us, tell us. Let us in. Tell us.

Jessie McCrone:

No it’s… Look, I must admit, I find it a bit… I’ve spent a lot of time with him, so I just find it slightly… Yeah, he’s the Premier, and he did some stuff, and surely you’re not that interested in him. But I even reflected, when he went to Gimlet, like after the federal election with the Prime Minister.

Justin Smith:

Yeah.

Jessie McCrone:

And it was run in the paper that he was at Gimlet. But the story was that Daniel Andrews was at Gimlet. And I was like, the Prime Minister-

Justin Smith:

The Prime Minister’s at Gimlet.

Jessie McCrone:

… is sitting right next to him. How is this the interesting part?

Justin Smith:

Well, see your job was to promote your guy, and you did your job well.

Jessie McCrone:

Clearly, clearly. It was too well.

Colleen Harkin:

It was the most infamous Victorian ever.

Jessie McCrone:

Clearly. Clearly.

Justin Smith:

What’s-

Jessie McCrone:

Infamous, not famous.

Justin Smith:

What do they want to talk… You said, “What does he like,” but is there any particular topic that they bring up?

Jessie McCrone:

Obviously people want to talk about COVID.

Justin Smith:

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Jessie McCrone:

It is a period in history.

Justin Smith:

Yeah.

Jessie McCrone:

And I think that anyone’s talking to Gladys Berejiklian’s former staff, they would probably asking similar questions about what happened, what was it like, was it hard? That’s broadly what people want to know.

Justin Smith:

All right, we’re going to talk about a few big stories of the week. 1-300-222-774. Jump in whenever you like. Colleen, I want to start with you on, it’s a word that when we hear it at the moment, it means something very different. Childcare.

Colleen Harkin:

Hmm.

Justin Smith:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

Hmm.

Justin Smith:

And the awful news that has come out there. Are we heading in the right direction?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I think, I mean obviously that whole story is just heinous, right? The allegations and stuff, right? Just leave that aside. But the regulation and the, I’m going to call it a knee-jerk reaction. I mean, there were, obviously, there are things in that industry that… Any industry can be run better, but I want to put that aside and the idea that we have to have CCT… What do you call it? You know.

Jessie McCrone:

CCTV.

Justin Smith:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

CCTV in every centre. That we have to have four eyes on every child all the time. I mean, they’re just unsustainable regulation to put into an industry. It will make the cost of it explode. Parents won’t be able to afford it. There’s all of those sorts of things that’s turning the same. All those people in that industry is saying that you’re all not trustworthy people. The working with children check is a waste of time, bureaucratic red tape that serves no purpose whatsoever. So I kind of look at it all and go, because there’s one heinous alleged act that the entire industry is going to be turned upside down, and introduce a whole lot of red tape and bureaucracy that will serve no purpose and only add cost and demand on an industry that is actually for the most part, working quite well.

Justin Smith:

But Jessie is some of the problems that have been brought up around childcare are not new.

Jessie McCrone:

Hmm.

Justin Smith:

We had a Royal Commission.

Jessie McCrone:

Hmm.

Justin Smith:

They told us to do X and Y, that wasn’t done. The Working With Children’s check has been criticised over and over again by people, right smack dab in the business of it.

Jessie McCrone:

Hmm.

Justin Smith:

So what…

Jessie McCrone:

Well, Colleen makes an excellent point about the Working With Children’s Check. It demonstrably is not an effective measure to keep children safe. And I think that has definitely been demonstrated as again, as Colleen said, it’s just a terrible, terrible incident. And I think that it’s been interesting, even watching friends of mine, whether they engage with the story or don’t engage with the story, is very much dependent on whether they have children in childcare. A lot of people who do don’t want the details and are not digging around on this topic.

But I would just pick up the point about making childcare more expensive, because it is a real challenge with this industry. It is seen as a productivity measure to be able to allow people to go to work. It is prohibitively expensive for a lot of families to enrol their children in childcare. And we do have to get that balance right about safety and also not making it so prohibitive that people don’t use it.

I do think, though, the idea that childcare industry is working is just demonstrably false, and it’s not even necessarily about this issue. It’s the fact that it is cripplingly expensive. Those friends I have whose kids finish childcare have a little party to celebrate the fact that they’re no longer to be spending $40,000 a year.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s like private school fees.

Jessie McCrone:

Exactly.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Jessie McCrone:

They start thinking, “Maybe I can afford this very expensive private school because I’ve been sending my kid to childcare.” I reflect, you asked me what people think about Daniel Andrews, and they ask me what would he have done in this instance?

Justin Smith:

Oh, okay.

Jessie McCrone:

Colleen will love this. I think there’s every chance he would’ve announced that Victoria is taking over childcare, that we are going to nationalise childcare.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, that response wouldn’t surprise me. I don’t agree that would be the right one, though.

Jessie McCrone:

No, but I think that there is some question about school and ensuring there is an affordable option for people. And I don’t think the wholesale privatisation of childcare is providing that kind of childcare that is affordable and that is to the standard that people want. I don’t see the industry providing that.

Justin Smith:

Well, what’s the incumbent going to do then?

Jessie McCrone:

I’m not sure. I’m no longer in the government.

Justin Smith:

No, no, no. Well, what-

Colleen Harkin:

There is a question about, I mean, and it does go to the issue of cost.

Jessie McCrone:

Hmm.

Colleen Harkin:

And I don’t know who decides these things. Who says that you have to have one adult to four children?

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

As opposed to one to five children? Who’s made that metrics that said, that makes it a safer place? Because the impact on cost is extraordinary, between having one adult to four as opposed to one adult to five.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

So there are all those sorts of internal machinations about how the industry works that I don’t know who makes them.

Jessie McCrone:

I assume the regulator.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

But what benchmark is a regulator using to say that that’s what makes it a better environment because it has a huge impact on the cost.

Justin Smith:

I want to play you this, if you don’t mind. At the start of the week, I spoke with Carolyn Smith from the United Workers Union. They had, and before any of these allegations had been made public, or before they knew about them, they were surveying their workers. 2000 workers in Victoria that work in childcare centres and educators. They had said that they… The upshot of the survey was that they said they could not guarantee the safety of children. Here’s a bit of what you said.

Carolyn Smith:

Centres are using illegal loophole. So they are using the fact that there may be a director sitting in an office or a room that slightly is over ratio and averaging it out. But what we all know is the ratios are there for a reason.

Justin Smith:

Yeah. So Carolyn Smith and the union was saying, look, the agencies that are running these childcare centres are pushing for the buck. There are just not enough staff because of it. Carolyn?

Colleen Harkin:

But, it doesn’t-

Justin Smith:

Colleen. Colleen. I’m sorry.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. No, that’s okay. It doesn’t answer my question about, I get that the unions say that that’s a number, but where does that number come from? Where is the evidence base that says one adult to every four children as opposed to one every five? I mean that’s a union workplace issue. To me that’s a separate conversation. So if the unions say that it should be one to four, that’s a union issue. It’s not necessarily one that says that that will make the children safe.

Justin Smith:

Well, they… I… No.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, definitely, it can get out to one adult to one child. You know, that will make the children safe. Why not-

Justin Smith:

But I guess they’re talking to people that are on the ground, and they say that forget what the ratio has been set at. They say they don’t have enough staff in those places-

Colleen Harkin:

That’s a different issue again. Right?

Justin Smith:

… to keep the children safe.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s a different issue again about how many people are actually trained in this industry. And there are not enough people who are going into the industry to be trained and trained well.

Jessie McCrone:

And I think the question about ratios as well and how it impacts the casualization, and the fact that it does seem that it’s an industry with a lot of transients between different childcare centres, which may increase the capacity for something like this to happen.

Justin Smith:

Let’s get a call on it. Kay’s in Bacchus Marsh. Hello, Kay.

Kay:

Hey, how you go?

Justin Smith:

We’re great. Go ahead. We’ve got you.

Kay:

Yeah. I think the care industry being privatised, that really needs to stop. If we put all the money into a government-run industry, we could do it a lot cheaper, pay people fairly, and I think having profits is not ideal. That’s where corners are cut because they need to make profits.

Justin Smith:

Jessie, I’m going to go back to you on that. Kay said, profits are killing the industry.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, and I think that there is a question about incentive when it comes to running a childcare centre and when your incentive is to make as much money as possible, there is a question about how many staff you hire and whether you rely more heavily on a more casualized workforce.

Justin Smith:

Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

The fundamental situation here is that there’s a group of people who believe that government run things better, and I fundamentally disagree that government is the arbiter of better business. And that lady’s, I’ve forgotten her name. I’m sorry. The caller?

Justin Smith:

Kay.

Colleen Harkin:

Kay. We pay for it. So the idea that government provides it cheaper on face value, that might look like what’s happening here, but the taxpayer pays for it. It’s the money’s not coming from nowhere. We’re all paying for service.

Justin Smith:

But there is somebody at the top of the tree that needs to make money, aren’t they?

Colleen Harkin:

Of course.

Justin Smith:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

But government providing the service doesn’t mean it’s free. We are paying.

Jessie McCrone:

No, it is interesting though, because it is a heavily subsidised industry already.

Colleen Harkin:

Hmm.

Jessie McCrone:

This is the interesting suggestion about the idea that you’d nationalise it, is the amount of taxpayer dollar that is already going into childcare subsidies, is there a possibility to do it cheaper for the taxpayer if they ran the centres?

Justin Smith:

Yeah, look. The other side to that too, if it is put into public hands, there’s a minister at the other end who wants to make sure they win the next election, and they’re going to get a right-royal kick up the backside of childcare isn’t run properly.

Jessie McCrone:

Hmm.

Justin Smith:

And every time there is a story like this or even similar to this, they are absolutely sweating bullets. Whereas the-

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, I don’t share your faith in the accountability of ministers. I’m sorry.

Justin Smith:

Damn, I was really hoping you would.

Colleen Harkin:

It sounded great.

Justin Smith:

We’re just getting started. Colleen Harkin is Director of Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Jessie McCrone is managing director at FMRS Advisory and former senior advisor of Daniel Andrews. We’ll come back in a moment.

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Justin Smith:

We… Shouldn’t be this much fun to talk on radio. 1-300-222-774 is the phone number. What was your big story of the week? If you want to jump in, we’d love you to. Colleen Harkin is here. Jessie McCrone is here. So there’s been a lot of talk about protesting this week. Opposition leader, Brad Batten was on 774 ABC Breakfast with Brett McLeod this week. The opposition’s plan is to have people register with the police to have a protest. Here’s a little what he said.

Brad Battin:

If you don’t register, and then you don’t comply with move-on laws, then you will be arrested. And that’s the old move-on laws that were there. If you fail to leave the area, or if you come back to an exclusion zone after… So you can be excluded from that area for a period of time. If you come back into that exclusion area, then you could face a fine of up to $22,000 or be imprisoned.

Justin Smith:

All right. Or be imprisoned. Jessie, I’m sure you’ll be giving you full throated support behind the opposition leader. What did you make of that?

Jessie McCrone:

Look, it’s a nice idea in theory. I don’t think it works. I think that Sydney has something called a form-one. Similarly, there is you have to register your protest and that sort of thing. If we think that it has diminished the volume of protest, or the disruption to the city, that’s not been the outcome. It just means that the protest is registered. I think that if you tell an anarchist from Brunswick that they are now going to have to fill out a form, and that’s the way that they’re going to be managed, I don’t think that that is necessarily going to have them stay within the exclusion zones.

Justin Smith:

And-

Jessie McCrone:

And… Sorry, just to finish, I do think that the challenge we’re trying to deal with here is really trying to make sure that the anti-Semitism that we’ve seen over the weekend and the previous week, and some of the horrendous behaviour that’s happened immediately post some of these protests is dealt with. I think the idea that the big challenge is people forming groups and walking down the centre of the city for a range of issues isn’t really the heart of the challenge here.

Justin Smith:

And good morning to everyone in Brunswick. Jessie doesn’t think you’re all ratbags. Colleen-

Colleen Harkin:

They’re just anarchists.

Justin Smith:

Just one, right?

Colleen Harkin:

Just one of them.

Justin Smith:

Just one. Colleen, what do you think? Have we lost our ability to just have a ruddy good protest and get our voices heard without-

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin Smith:

… it going over the top?

Colleen Harkin:

Look. The core of this is in a democracy, it is your fundamental right for peaceful protest, right?

Justin Smith:

Hmm.

Colleen Harkin:

To actually stand on the street and say what you want to. I agree with Jess in terms of the what’s driving this is the disgraceful anti-Semitism that we’ve seen.

Justin Smith:

Mm-hmm.

Colleen Harkin:

The trouble, though, is that we do already have the laws, it’s just that they’ve been selectively implemented, and we’ve got to get serious about implementing the laws that we already have. I think the instincts on this to register a protest are all wrong. It sounds fine. I agree with you.

Justin Smith:

Hmm.

Colleen Harkin:

It sounds fine in theory. In practise, what happens in the future if it’s a state-permitted protest, and then they don’t like your cause in the future, the impact on a democracy could be quite considerable. So I don’t support the idea of a permit system. I don’t like what’s happening either. But I do think that it is a matter of that we already have the laws, and we just have to get serious about implementing them.

Jessie McCrone:

And I thought there was good news out of the poll this week that they are going to review what happened at Miznon.

Colleen Harkin:

Hmm.

Jessie McCrone:

They have accepted that their approach didn’t work.

Colleen Harkin:

Hmm.

Jessie McCrone:

And I think that that is a positive sign that some of the things that Colleen’s talking about will be re-looked at and perhaps taken…

Justin Smith:

And is that feeling that if they were registered, it doesn’t prevent what they-

Colleen Harkin:

They knew about the rally.

Justin Smith:

Yeah.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

The police made a decision-

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

… based on what type of rally they understood it to be, what they thought the best case of action not to antagonise the people attending the rally. It turned out that looks like it was the wrong call. And I do think it is good that they look at that again and how they approached it.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Justin Smith:

And they haven’t-

Colleen Harkin:

We’ve also let things fester for a while.

Jessie McCrone:

Hmm.

Colleen Harkin:

I mean there’s been a lot of activity going on in the last couple of years that has been reprehensible and we’ve sort of let it boil away without actually addressing it, and it’s actually got completely out of hand. So I agree with you Jessie. Re-looking at what they’re doing and getting the old tougher-on-crime sort of thing is well overdue.

Justin Smith:

1-300-222-774. Please jump into The Wrap. Colleen Harkin is here. Jessie McCrone. It’s been one of the biggest criminal trials that this country has ever seen and it has caused one hell of a stir, and a lot of interest around the world. And people from the other side of the world learning place names like Leongatha-

Jessie McCrone:

Mm-hmm.

Justin Smith:

… and Morwell. But obviously at the very core of this is the murder of three people. What did you, how the, the way that this trial unfolded and the way people have been talking about it, Jessie?

Jessie McCrone:

It’s been all-consuming, hasn’t it?

Justin Smith:

Hmm.

Jessie McCrone:

You haven’t been able to go anywhere or do anything without absorbing elements of the trial. Even to the extent where the woman who wrote the cookbook that the murderer used has in some way had to put out a statement. I think we’re probably getting to the ends of incredulity on that point. It’s just our thirst for knowledge about this case is like-

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Jessie McCrone:

… well, we haven’t seen it in Australia for some time.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, it’s-

Jessie McCrone:

I think it’s fair to say. I had noticed that the doctor who saw and spoke at the trial-

Justin Smith:

Yes.

Jessie McCrone:

… has perhaps been reported. It has been reported that he’s been reported to APRA or that there have been complaints made about him because of his language or the things he said about, let’s face it, a convicted murderer after the trial. And I do think that we’re getting to the point of ridiculousness.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s just out of hand.

Justin Smith:

It’s what… Well, what-

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah. Like if he can’t say… Well, he just sort of said, I thought she did it. And-

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, he made a comment about exposure to her.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, exposure to her.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, yeah.

Jessie McCrone:

And I thought, well, she’s been convicted, he’s not now interfering with the trial.

Justin Smith:

Is there any concern that he was still her doctor?

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, I think it was unlikely.

Justin Smith:

Are you with me?

Jessie McCrone:

Well, as he said-

Colleen Harkin:

She’d checked out.

Jessie McCrone:

… she checked out.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Jessie McCrone:

She refused the treatment. So no longer a patient. I did think, like he’s a boy from Leongatha. Like, just-

Justin Smith:

Leave him alone.

Jessie McCrone:

… leave him alone.

Colleen Harkin:

Leave him alone.

Jessie McCrone:

Leave him alone.

Justin Smith:

Have you been astounded, Colleen, at the coverage, the podcasting, the books that are going to come, the movies that are going to come, the documentaries?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin Smith:

It’s been extraordinary.

Colleen Harkin:

I mean it is an extraordinary story though, isn’t it? I mean, well it’s not a story, it’s real life.

Justin Smith:

Know what you mean.

Colleen Harkin:

I think that’s actually part of the whole scenario. But you see movies about this stuff, that’s made up, and unfortunately this is real, and in our own backyard. And a seemingly ordinary family, which is kind of what’s most shocking about it. So I-

Jessie McCrone:

But they were using Signal. I don’t understand. I’ve said the most interesting part of the case was when it came out that she was organising a dinner over a platform that broadly criminals and people who want their emails to be deleted use. I was like, what kind of family is using Signal? Like what, why aren’t you on WhatsApp like everyone else?

Justin Smith:

Colleen, do you want to… There’s something to remember. Colleen, you wanted to mention the liberal party as a whole?

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, did I? What?

Justin Smith:

Did you? I think so.

Colleen Harkin:

Did I?

Jessie McCrone:

You’re like, “No, I already-“

Colleen Harkin:

I’m not sure that I did.

Jessie McCrone:

I think she may have been responding to-

Justin Smith:

It was something-

Jessie McCrone:

… to my thing that made me smile this week.

Justin Smith:

Oh, okay.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Justin Smith:

All right, well let’s do first things.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Justin Smith:

So I’ve got you now.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Justin Smith:

Hang on a sec. Hang on, let me reset. 3, 2, 1. Jessie, tell us something that made you smile this week.

Jessie McCrone:

I am not often going to say that. There was a poll in the Australian this week that made me smile. And it was a poll that demonstrated that the suburban rail loop is overwhelmingly supported. It’s supported by nearly every cohort of age demographic. It’s even supported by liberal voters to a higher extent than their current primary. And I paused and I read it and it really did make me smile. Because I would say I think the liberal party keep tying themselves in knots on this particular project. Do they support it? Are they going to pause it? Are they going to cut it? And I don’t think that their voters are with them.

Justin Smith:

Okay.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, so then my comment is not-

Justin Smith:

That allows me to pivot.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

It was, yeah. Not that I felt good about that. They did not make me smile, but it is an interesting survey that they did that says…

Jessie McCrone:

Mm-hmm.

Colleen Harkin:

But I think the suburban rail loop is supported more by people who actually not going to use it. I’ve read somewhere that it is the-

Jessie McCrone:

It’s a loop all the way around Melbourne. Everyone’s going to use it.

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, no they’re not. And it’s gonna cost kazillions of dollars that no-one wants. But yeah, that stat is pretty unpleasant to read. I mean both of the major parties, primary vote is very low.

Jessie McCrone:

Hmm.

Colleen Harkin:

I mean people are genuinely and generically dissatisfied with major-party politics.

Justin Smith:

Well look, while we talk about polls, we had… Obviously there was an enormous loss to the Federal Coalition. The Coalition in Victoria has had some numbers coming out saying that they will lose the next election. What is there… And Jessie, I know that you wouldn’t be giving out free advice to the liberal party and the Coalition-

Jessie McCrone:

They wouldn’t take it.

Justin Smith:

But you can do a double bluff on them right now. But where have they got this so wrong in cutting through to people? And is it the message they’ve got wrong? Or is it the telling of the message?

Jessie McCrone:

We were just talking about this outside. I think that voters care a lot about authenticity and directness and being clear about where you stand. And I think that was part of the attractiveness of Daniel Andrews to the electorate, is that you knew what he stood for, and you may not have agreed with it, but you certainly knew where he stood. And you probably knew where he was going to go on different issues. I think that they had an opportunity with Dutton as the leader to sort of be that. But then they gussied him up in a pink sort of cardigan and tried to say he was a family soft man. And the authenticity wasn’t there. And I don’t think it is just Dutton, but I think authenticity is incredibly important in politics.

Justin Smith:

And it’s funny you mentioned that, because they use that term in media a bit, which is the hot tap / cold tap theory-

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Justin Smith:

… is when you turn on the cold tap, you want cold water to come out.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Justin Smith:

You don’t want to be surprised.

Jessie McCrone:

Exactly.

Justin Smith:

So when they turned Peter Dutton, did they get a shock?

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin Smith:

Okay.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, I mean his branding was a strong, tough guy.

Jessie McCrone:

Hmm.

Colleen Harkin:

And that’s who he was. And that was good. It was part of the personality. People knew what to expect from him. And then for some reason somebody decided to try and make him into a teddy bear, a nice guy, family guy. And I think constituents smell, you know, they can smell that that’s not authentic, as you say.

Jessie McCrone:

Hmm.

Justin Smith:

Thought you were about to say something else.

Jessie McCrone:

So-

Justin Smith:

Wanted to remind you where you are.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah. So, and it’s not just the Dutton issue.

Colleen Harkin:

Hmm.

Jessie McCrone:

It is the party generally working out, and it needs to do it in a hurry, working out who it is and what it stands for. I agree with you, Jess, that people, for example, Daniel Andrews, they can despise him.

Colleen Harkin:

Hmm.

Jessie McCrone:

But they actually know what he stands for and what he’s going to do next. And the thing that I think constituents like least is uncertainty.

Colleen Harkin:

Hmm.

Jessie McCrone:

So they can disagree with you. They can not like you, but they will vote for you if they know what you’re going to do and they subscribe to those principles.

Justin Smith:

Colleen, something that made you smart this week?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I wanted to offer a book.

Justin Smith:

Okay.

Colleen Harkin:

But yeah.

Justin Smith:

We’ll do culture.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, right? Yeah, right?

Justin Smith:

Culture.

Colleen Harkin:

Offer a book that’s just-

Jessie McCrone:

See, Olivia’s run all over you.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Justin Smith:

Just please stick to the plan. Okay?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, you know-

Justin Smith:

I don’t like this.

Colleen Harkin:

… Jess is what made us smile. I didn’t want to smile about that.

Justin Smith:

Okay, fair enough. Let’s chuck the rule book.

Colleen Harkin:

So, no, The Silent Patient by-

Justin Smith:

Do whatever the hell you like.

Colleen Harkin:

The Silent Patient by Alex Michaelides. It’s a psychological thriller and I’ve started on an audiobook, which I’ve not done before.

Jessie McCrone:

Oh.

Colleen Harkin:

So…

Justin Smith:

Audiobooks are great.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, well it’s new for me. I like the fact that you can go for a walk and do other things.

Jessie McCrone:

It’s efficient.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, it is very efficient.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

I do like the idea when you’re reading a book to stick yourself in a corner and hide away.

Jessie McCrone:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

But first audiobook for me.

Justin Smith:

All right. As long as you buy it. As an author, just buy it.

Colleen Harkin:

Yes, I bought it.

Justin Smith:

Make sure you buy it. That’s all we care about.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Justin Smith:

Yeah, we don’t care how you get it. Jessie?

Jessie McCrone:

I’m going to watch Sandman if that’s who you’re about to ask me.

Justin Smith:

Yeah, that’s what I-

Jessie McCrone:

The second season. And my partner is away for the weekend in Adelaide, and I am very excited about being able to watch my nerdy, nerdy TV show by myself.

Justin Smith:

It’s wonderful as out of control as it was. I certainly appreciate having you here. Thank you. Colleen Harkin, Director of Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs and Jessie McCrone, managing Director of FMRS Advisory and…

Jessie McCrone:

And a former something to someone.

Justin Smith:

There you go. Yeah. Nailed it. Coming up, I want to ask you this question. Legalising cannabis in Victoria? So there’s some numbers coming out from a group is that they said, “Look, if you legalise cannabis…” This is not medicinal by the way, this is, quote, unquote, “recreational.” Will bring you about $10 billion to the state. Where would Daniel Andrews have stood on that?

Jessie McCrone:

Well, I regret-

Justin Smith:

Pretend it’s a barbecue.

Jessie McCrone:

I absolutely regret even saying that, or he would’ve considered nationalising childcare. He wouldn’t have definitely done it for the Herald Sun out there. They’re probably looking to make it tomorrow’s front page.

Justin Smith:

All right, so look, what do you think? We’re going to have a look at those numbers in a moment. 1-300-222-774. Let’s get some news headlines in the ABC newsroom. Melissa Polomini. Hi, Melissa.

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne 11 July 2025 has been edited for clarity.