Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 15 August 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne and discussed the IPA’s research on Australian democracy.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Rafael Epstein:

We are joined by Emma Dawson. She’s the executive director of the Chifley Research Centre. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And Colleen Harkin joins us as well, director of the schools’ programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning to you both.

Rafael Epstein:

Look, let’s get stuck into what America says about Israel. One thing I didn’t point out earlier, Mike Huckabee, who’s Donald Trump’s guy in Israel, he’s pretty far out there on the edge. This is a guy who calls the occupied territories, Judea and Samaria. He’s pretty close to the second coming of Jesus type. That’s why we need to be friends with Israel thing. So he’s a long way to the right of where American politics even has been on Israel. That said, he’s America’s ambassador to Israel. He has Donald Trump’s year on Israel, and he did say he was disgusted on 7:30 last night with Australia, recognising Palestine. Here he is.

Mike Huckabee:

Tomas, this is a gift to them. There’s an enormous level of disappointment and some disgust.

Rafael Epstein:

Some disgust. The PM said Australians are disgusted by something else when he spoke to me earlier this morning. Here’s Anthony Albanese.

Anthony Albanese:

Australians have been disgusted by what they see on their TV every night. They were disgusted by the terrorist actions of Hamas on October 7. The slaughter of innocent Israelis, the taking of hostages and the ongoing holding of those hostages have outraged Australians. But Australians have also seen the death of tens of thousands of people when you have children.

Rafael Epstein:

Sounded pretty angry, the PM this morning. Australians disgusted by what they see on their TV every night. That’s clearly a reference to Gaza. Colleen, can I start with the American ambassador to Israel? Do we care?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, we do now. If we weren’t sort of cognizant and part of this story before, we are now that march on the Sydney Harbour Bridge last week completely put it into the centre of public consciousness. Even for those people who weren’t particularly interested or involved are now aware of it all. My view on this is that you can only live in peace if your enemy lets you. And so while we have an organisation like Hamas that is a recognised terrorist organisation in Australia who has said that for a long time, while they have those people still in captivity and while they-

Rafael Epstein:

I just want to stop you. I’m happy to get into some of the merits of the argument, but I do want to zero in on one thing. We need to care now. Or you’re saying why do we need to listen to what the American ambassador says? Do you think it’s important that we do listen to what he said?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, as part of our foreign policy positioning, so we did have a bipartisan view on this for years, and now all of a sudden that’s been broken. So the Albanese government has gone out on its own without support of the coalition. So that creates an internal problem for us as well. So the public sentiment of this is also dividing us so that’s-

Rafael Epstein:

Well, it might mimic what’s already there, but anyhow.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, it’s literally out on the streets now, which before you might’ve had a quiet view about it all, but now it’s actually.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s out there.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s out there.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma, what do you think?

Emma Dawson:

I think the prime minister’s language this morning was right. I think the tone was spot on. I mean, he was responding to a word that was used by Mike Huckabee. And as you say Raf, he’s got some fairly extreme views on a number of things, let alone on Israel. I think public sentiment has shifted recently and around the world. People are tired of seeing the slaughter that’s going on in Gaza. And so I think the Prime Minister was right to say, “Yes, Australians are discussed by that.” I think the point is, the point you’re making is that’s strong language between Australia and America, and it’s something-

Rafael Epstein:

It’s really strong language.

Emma Dawson:

It’s really strong language in diplomatic terms, but first shots fired by Mike Huckabee return fired from the prime minister. That’s what we want to see. This is a sovereign nation standing up and saying, “No, we like France, like the UK, like Canada, we are saying enough is enough here.” And I would point out that the recognition of Palestine as a state, as part of a two-state solution is a long-standing ALP policy. It’s been in the ALP platform for a long time and the Prime Minister himself has been an advocate for Palestine for more than 40 years. So it’s not actually as woo-woo shocking as people might think.

Rafael Epstein:

No, it’s not. Colleen, isn’t there a real danger for the coalition? I mean, it’s a pretty small minority of people in the world that are saying don’t recognise Palestine. That’s a pretty small group.

Colleen Harkin:

I think these two things have to be separated, right? It’s not that people are saying don’t recognise Palestine. It’s saying that there don’t seem to be any terms and conditions to this.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, they’re saying don’t recognise now, right? Not many people are saying that. But my point is not many people are saying that.

Colleen Harkin:

So I would say to these people, where were they when Hamas is starving its own people for the last 15 years? So this march, it actually does literally have an anti-Semitic undertone to it.

Rafael Epstein:

I have to [inaudible 00:06:16] That’s not true. I’m sorry. I’m sorry.

Colleen Harkin:

Where were they for the last 15 years marching-

Rafael Epstein:

You cannot say, you cannot say because you didn’t say one thing. I’m sorry. [inaudible 00:06:26] Coleen, I’m going to talk and then I’m going to let you respond.

Colleen Harkin:

All right.

Rafael Epstein:

It is garbage to suggest that when you support one side, you are anti the religion of another.

Colleen Harkin:

No, no, no. I’m not saying that.

Rafael Epstein:

No, that’s exactly what you said. You said it was anti-Semitic.

Colleen Harkin:

No, what I’m saying is that all these people who are marching for the last over the bridge, for example, where have they been for the last decade or more marching for the people of Palestine? What are we freeing Palestine from? It’s from this. It’s from this.

Rafael Epstein:

Sorry. That doesn’t make sense.

Colleen Harkin:

It does because what they’re saying now-

Rafael Epstein:

Why are you only allowed to stand up? Why is it logical to suggest that you can’t stand up now because you didn’t stand up 10 years ago

Colleen Harkin:

Or anytime before this.

Rafael Epstein:

It doesn’t make sense.

Emma Dawson:

Let’s make the first point. A lot of the young people marching on that bridge were not old enough to be aware of this issue 10 years ago. What we have seen over the last two years now, it’s almost two years since the horrific terrorist attack of the 7th of October, which I condemn at the time and condemn utterly now. But what we have seen has been shocking to people. Now you can argue that that’s war and that that’s urban warfare. And the difference is now it’s on our screens every day. But the fact is, it is, and people are aware of the brutality when you’re seeing actually starvation and what are unarguably war crimes occurring.

And now the extreme position of saying we are going to take over Gaza completely, we’re going to have further settlements in the West Bank. That is an extreme position. They are violating international law on a daily basis.

Colleen Harkin:

So do you think there should be any checks and balances in this?

Emma Dawson:

I do, Colleen, and I think [inaudible 00:08:02]

Rafael Epstein:

Can I just… We both leaped in on her. Colleen, if you have to go and then we’ll respond.

Colleen Harkin:

Should there be any checks and balances before you go down that path of recognising the United Nations?

Emma Dawson:

Yes.

Colleen Harkin:

So there has been no conversation to say if you do this, we will do that.

Emma Dawson:

There has, actually, Colleen. There has. It’s been very clear. Mark Carney and other leaders around the world would come-

Colleen Harkin:

No, no, I’m talking Australia.

Emma Dawson:

And Australia has said there will be clear conditions and we are in dialogue with-

Colleen Harkin:

Well, they haven’t made… They’ve just given a commitment.

Emma Dawson:

… the global community.

Colleen Harkin:

No, they’ve given a commitment to recognise [inaudible 00:08:33]

Emma Dawson:

Both minister and the foreign minister have said that Hamas can have no part in the future administration of a Palestinian state. Now-

Colleen Harkin:

They have not given-

Emma Dawson:

The fact is this is all largely symbolic because the US has a veto right at the UN. [inaudible 00:08:49]

Colleen Harkin:

We’re talking about Australia’s responsibility to Australian people and our foreign policy.

Emma Dawson:

And I agree. It’s being-

Colleen Harkin:

And there has been no-

Rafael Epstein:

One at a time. One at a time. I get it. It’s okay to be upset and it’s okay to interrupt each other.

Colleen Harkin:

We’re not upset. We’re just-

Rafael Epstein:

No, no, no.

Emma Dawson:

No, no, no.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s okay. I just want everyone to understand. So I just want to maybe zero in on one thing Emma said. Emma Dawson is with us. Colleen Harkin is with this as well. Emma, you said it’s largely symbolic. And Colleen, you said it’s about Australia’s response. What did you mean?

Colleen Harkin:

So we have a responsibility to our own people. I think this is short-term. It’s convenient for western suburbs, Sydney electoral votes. I think there’s a political component to this domestically. And unless you have a scenario where part of this deal is to say you give back those people who you still have in captivity and that you agree that you will not make it your ambition to obliterate your neighbour. There has to be terms and conditions with this that go with it. It can’t be just, “Yeah. Okay. We’ll, recognise it.

Rafael Epstein:

And a quick response.

Emma Dawson:

I don’t think anyone disagrees with that. I don’t think anyone disagrees that, yes, but recognising Palestine now as part of a process, it is getting incredibly difficult. Incredibly messy whether anything will be achieved. But the point is no one disagrees with those conditions. Nobody sensible-

Colleen Harkin:

I’m not hearing them say it.

Emma Dawson:

… thinks that Hamas can have a role in the administration.

Colleen Harkin:

No, they’re not calling that out with it. They’re two separate conversations.

Emma Dawson:

I’ve heard it said several times.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen Harkin and Emma Dawson are with us. I guess reflecting the sorts of conversations that are going on when the various parts of the community meet and discuss this. You can hear the passion in my voice, in Emma’s voice, and in Colleen’s voice because it matters to a lot of people. 1300-222-774 is the phone number. Nehru is in Epping calling about these issues in Gaza. Everybody is welcome to call and have their say. I can see a lot of texts. You are welcome to call as well. Nehru, what did you want to say?

Nehru:

Thanks for taking my call, Raf. Look, my grandfather actually was born under occupation. My father was born under occupation. I had the freedom, right?

Rafael Epstein:

So just explain what you mean by occupation in Bangladesh.

Nehru:

My grandfather was under occupation of British. My father was under occupation of Pakistan. And I have the freedom, right? People do have freedom to become a human. It is important. If the people doesn’t have a freedom, you can’t expect them to be a human. So their action would be out of a lot of other humanity. So that’s why freedom in Palestine is more important than anything else. That’s why standing with prime minister that recognising the freedom of Palestine and.

Living in Australia makes me a better person. It makes me actually human. When I left Bangladesh, I was more like a national person. But when I moved to Australia, understanding all of the humankind and basic necessity makes me a better human. So that’s why we need to stop thinking about our national interest acting as a human.

Rafael Epstein:

Acting in the human interest. Look, really interesting, Nehru, and thank you for that. That’s a parallel I would not have thought of, but to have had your dad growing up in Bangladesh under British rule, sorry, your grandfather under British rule and your dad under Pakistani rule, because at one stage those were one nation, Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is 18 minutes past 10 on 774. In a moment I’ll get to more of your calls. I want to ask both Emma and Colleen how we untangle the mess around childcare and how we make that system safer if either of them have more they wish to contribute as well around issues to do with Palestine and Israel. We will get to that and your calls.

As I mentioned earlier, the PM has staked a lot of his prime ministership on universal childcare. What that means is that childcare would be as available and as well funded as primary school has the government dropped the ball when it comes to safety. It’s a whole lot of governments that have to lift their game on that. We’ll get to that in a moment.

Colleen Harkin is with us from the IPA and Emma Dawson from the Chifley Research Centre. Colleen, Nehru’s call about Bangladesh and freedom. You wanted to respond to that?

Colleen Harkin:

I thought that was an interesting piece of input. But his comment about freedom actually comes down to democratic rights, and that’s what the people of Gaza don’t have. So again, I go to this issue of where are the terms and conditions of this recognition? I agree with Nehru, freedom is incredibly important. It’s fundamental to people being able to be human. And so we have people demonstrating on our streets because we have the freedom to do that. And so all of these things have to be tied in together.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma, any need to respond to that?

Emma Dawson:

Don’t disagree with that. I think, yes, the people of Israel deserve to live in peace and freedom and security so do the people of Palestine. And there are no leaders on either side of this conflict at the moment that are making that easy to achieve.

Rafael Epstein:

Nor covering themselves in glory.

Emma Dawson:

Not at all. I’d agree with that.

Rafael Epstein:

Also worth pointing out, all of the munitions dropped on Gaza, it is more than the bombs dropped on London, Dresden and Hamburg, I think twice over. So let’s just keep in mind the amount of munitions and-

Emma Dawson:

It’s a tiny, tiny-

Rafael Epstein:

It’s a tiny thing?

Emma Dawson:

Yes.

Rafael Epstein:

I think it fits into Melbourne…. It fits into Canberra twice, Gaza. Let’s think about childcare. I guess the long and the short of it is for a long time we have known that keeping track of people in childcare about whom there are suspicions has been very, very difficult. Unless people have been criminally convicted, red flags have been raised and not followed. I think that’s the simple way to think about it. Red flags raised and not followed. One example at Goodstart Earlier Learning, the ABC mentioned reported on this week, someone was essentially accused in an internal employer investigation of grooming of only changing the nappies of the female toddlers kicked out of that childcare centre.

Goodstart were never told that that person was black banned by the regulator, the state government regulator and no other childcare centre was told that. He was then subsequently banned later on for other things by the state government system from working in childcare. But even still today, he has not lost his Working with Children Check. That is a system not working clearly. The head of Goodstart had a chat to us earlier in the week, Dr. Ros Baxter. So don’t forget, that’s the organisation that years ago found this guy guilty of what they called grooming. Not a criminal investigation. Police didn’t say there was enough there, but Ros Baxter explained the dilemma this way.

Ros Baxter:

There are two sets of rights here. The rights of a child to be safe when they’re in early learning and the rights of the worker. Both are very important that child safety must absolutely be paramount. And we just feel like at the moment, the systems both in Victoria, but also right across the states and territories have not evolved to a point where we can be satisfied that that’s the case.

Rafael Epstein:

Can’t be satisfied that’s the case. And that I just said to the PM, regardless of anything else, if inside the system we’ve got, you get maybe the reporting on someone, you still can’t take away his Working with Children Check. I said that that must be… That’s not working. Here’s how the PM described it.

Anthony Albanese:

Oh, of course. It’s hopeless and we need to do better quite clearly. And these revelations are a wake-up call for state and territory governments in terms of the regulations, but also the Commonwealth. We’re doing what we can at the Commonwealth level to make sure [inaudible 00:16:20]

Rafael Epstein:

Can I just ask you a specific question?

Although we didn’t get to the specific question. Emma, why is it hard to do this? Why hasn’t it been done?

Emma Dawson:

Because the systems are a mess. Because we have a fragmented regulatory system that changes between states across the country, because we have allowed what should be fundamental public services to fall into the hands of people who are seeking to make a profit out of it and are resistant to regulation.

Rafael Epstein:

You think that’s the reason?

Emma Dawson:

I do, I do, I do. I think that it’s time to say, and I think I’ve said this before on this show, that the privatisation of care services is a failed experiment. We just keep coming back to this every time. It shouldn’t be this hard, right? We should have good systems in place. We were told in the ’80s, in the ’90s that privatisation would provide cheaper services, more efficient services, that there’d be less bureaucratic red tape involved.

Look, what we’ve ended up with? The allocation on childcare from the government in 2023, ’24 is over $12 billion over four years, right? $12 billion. Don’t tell me that this is an efficient, well-costed value for money, well-operating service. It is not, and I think it is time for us to say we need to take it back in-house. And that the productivity commission report came out yesterday. They recommended a national regulator, a whole heap of things that would help a lot.

But ultimately, I think the parents of Australia are saying, “We pay taxes, we expect services. This is education and the government should be responsible for it as it is with schools.”

Rafael Epstein:

I think this is why we’ve got someone from the Chifley Research Centre and the Institute of Public Affairs. You can hear where Emma is coming from. Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, typically you might think I have a slightly different perspective on this.

Rafael Epstein:

I need to know if you do.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I mean the whole thing is sickening, right? But to your point, Emma, this is where I really disagree with you because the guy who’s been accused or whatever, still has, he’s Working with Children Check. He still has it active today. And that’s a government organisation that has the ability to remove it immediately. So it’s got nothing to do with privatisation. It’s got to do with somehow the government’s red tape inability, who has a decision making? I don’t know how many layers of people it has to go through. I don’t don’t know what the process is.

Rafael Epstein:

Tell me what you think though. What is your… I mean, none of us know the answer, right? Why is it so hard? That’s your phone making a noise. That’s okay. Why is it so difficult for governments? Oops, there we go. We’ve dropped the phone again while Colleen tries to kill that.

Emma Dawson:

This is my point though, is that when you create private businesses, a fragmented system, then the layers of regulation that you need to put in place become very complex. You’ve got certain standards.

Rafael Epstein:

So you’re saying effectively it being privatised leads to complexity, which means it’s hard to pull the levers.

Colleen Harkin:

No, I’m saying the opposite.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, is she right?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, no, I think in theory the opposite because it creates all these regulation components that the government organises. We are seeing that all of these layers of bureaucracy are not working. It don’t work.

Rafael Epstein:

Why isn’t it fixable?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, look, I do think that this issue of sexual abuse and allegations within the system is extraordinary. And I don’t know how you control that because you can’t.

Rafael Epstein:

I am asking you a slightly separate question because I’m not sure how you control that. I’m genuinely interested. What do you think is wrong with the way we run things? It’s clearly an example of too many layers of management, but what’s the problem?

Colleen Harkin:

The Working with Children Check is the classic example.

Rafael Epstein:

Of?

Colleen Harkin:

You turn up, you fill in a form, you send it off to a bureaucracy, they tick a box and they give it back to you. And getting that removed apparently seems to be almost impossible.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s just weird.

Colleen Harkin:

But everybody has to keep getting one. So if you want to do a barbecue for your kids’ football club on the weekend, you need a Working with Children Check. And so there’s just this layers.

Rafael Epstein:

There are layers. There’s voluntary and non-voluntary still.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right. There are.

Colleen Harkin:

To what end? Right? To what end? Because it’s not serving the purpose that was originally intended to. Presumably it was intended to check whether people were worthy of that position. But it only checks if you’ve already got a criminal record.

Rafael Epstein:

Got a criminal record.

Emma Dawson:

To some extent, you can never fully eliminate the risk of human behaviour.

Colleen Harkin:

No.

Rafael Epstein:

No, of course not.

Emma Dawson:

Correct. The Working with Children Check process is clearly too slow to respond. There are lacks of checks and balances. My point is there are different arms not talking to one another. And so the broader issue here is around you’ve got public providers, you’ve got non-profit providers, you’ve got for-profit providers, you’ve got state regulations, you’ve got federal funding.

Rafael Epstein:

And that’s make it feel hard.

Emma Dawson:

Good God. That’s a-

Colleen Harkin:

How do we have a situation where the whole nation knows this person still has a Working with Children Check?

Rafael Epstein:

I know. It’s bizarre.

Colleen Harkin:

How does that exist?

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t know. Well, Colleen, when Emma and I have a podcast about voucher systems versus government systems, you’ll be there. [inaudible 00:21:27] Xavier has called from Essendon though just to return to issues around the recognition of Palestine. Xavier, what do you want to say?

Xavier:

Hey, Raf. I just wanted to say that we live in such a great country and I think we underestimate the privilege that we have of being internationally recognised that maybe we should put ourselves in the shoes of others and what would we do if we lived, or how would we feel if we lived under an occupation of our neighbour and we didn’t have the rights or recognition as people and as humans?

Rafael Epstein:

So what’s your point there? Do you think recognition of Palestine will make a big difference?

Xavier:

Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s really important to recognise that they’re people just like us and there’s a lot of issues going on, but they’re humans. There’s people who are living under an occupation and we shouldn’t forget that and we shouldn’t forget how privileged we are to live in such a great place where we have our freedoms.

Rafael Epstein:

Thank you, Xavier. Emma?

Emma Dawson:

Just one fundamental point here because I’m not sure that everybody out there fully understands what we mean when we say recognise Palestine. Palestine is not recognised as a country, as a state at the moment. So the importance of this is to say they are a people with a right to some land. That is a big statement given the conflict in the Middle East. So it is significant. When I say it’s largely symbolic, I mean, the US will veto it and it won’t make Benjamin Netanyahu’s government behave any differently in the short term. But the shift for the world to say there are two states here rather than there is the state of Israel and a loosely grouped people who call themselves Palestinians, which is what some on the right in Israel would still describe them. It is saying they are a people with a right to a home land. And that’s fine.

Colleen Harkin:

Can I just clarify? I support a two-state solution. I support it. [inaudible 00:23:15] all that kind of stuff.

Emma Dawson:

… the state of Palestine.

Colleen Harkin:

We are missing some very important pieces in that process

Rafael Epstein:

Maybe if I can pose a question. Actually, I just wanted to get Jenny’s views on childcare because I’ve got a question on how recognition makes a difference to the reality on the ground. But Jenny has called from McKinnon on childcare. What do you want to say, Jenny?

Jenny:

Oh, yes. Look, I just wanted to comment on the whole Working With Children’s Check process at the recruitment stage. I’ve been in recruitment forever, and when you’re scrambling to get somebody on board and there’s all these processes that you have to go through, you might look at that document and think that’s bonafide and go ahead. Cancelling somebody’s Working With Children’s Check online isn’t going to make any difference unless the recruiter is checking online because they’re looking at that document.

And also what goes on is that you’ve got all these different providers, they’re recruiting… They do not necessarily have a centralised recruitment process. They might be small organisations. And there’s lots to do when it’s administratively heavy. And so-

Rafael Epstein:

I think that’s why they keep on talking about a national register, Jenny, because the idea is it would make your job a lot easier. That’s the whole point, but they haven’t done it.

Jenny:

No. And they need to make it easier. So it’s not just a card that somebody has.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes, indeed.

Jenny:

It’s an online real-time register.

Rafael Epstein:

Jenny, what’s amazingly frustrating is that people like you have been saying that for at least a decade.

Jenny:

At least.

Rafael Epstein:

And there’s something stopping that from happening. I just wanted to address the recognition thing. If you’re a teenage kid in the West Bank and you get dragged out of bed in the middle of the night, which happens, basically you’re arrested, you’re guilty. That’s the way. There’s a 99.9% conviction rate for Palestinians in the West Bank. It’s a military court system. So that’s a problem. Thousand Palestinians are being killed by these sort of settler militias. So that’s all happening.

I’m interested to know from both of you, does a recognition by Australia genuine, open, curious question, does it make a difference to those sort of situations on the ground? Colleen, will it help?

Colleen Harkin:

I’m not sure. That’s a really interesting question. I’m not sure that whether we say it or not, whether it’ll actually make a difference in that on the ground situation. It may perhaps over a number of years. I’m not sure. Look, the other thing with this is, and I’m not trying to whitewash any of it, but it is a very complex and long-standing-

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, definitely.

Colleen Harkin:

… problem that… I don’t know, anyone has a really great solution to it.

Emma Dawson:

I think the difference that makes, Raf, is that for a couple of decades that settler behaviour has been going on and the world has let it occur with impunity. And now by saying, “No, this is a state and these people have a right to their land,” we are saying clearly that behaviour in the eyes of the international community is illegal.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, and has to stop. In a moment, we are going to completely flip the switch to vaudeville because Tom Gleeson is going to be coming in. But before I get to that sort of vaudeville, when Colleen is learning how to tap dance on the weekends, which apparently she does, when you’re not doing that, what are you reading, watching? Culture share recommendation.

Colleen Harkin:

So I’ve got two quick ones for a bit of light-hearted relief. Someone’s referred to me a Facebook page called We Don’t Care and it’s-

Emma Dawson:

Love it.

Colleen Harkin:

And it’s a thing from, apparently… I’ve had a very quick look at it. Menopause-

Emma Dawson:

It’s for women of a certain age, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Correct. And it says a woman who’s… And people are sending in quick snips about what they really just don’t care about anymore.

Rafael Epstein:

We Don’t Care.

Colleen Harkin:

And it’s a great antidote to all these perfect-looking amazing influencers.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, it’s fun.

Colleen Harkin:

Right? So middle-aged women are sending in things like they really don’t care whether they’re bra and knickers match anymore.

Emma Dawson:

It’s good.

Colleen Harkin:

So it’s quite… It’s mildly used.

Emma Dawson:

I’m hearing your mother’s voice, “What if you get run over?”

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, correct.

Rafael Epstein:

What’s your other culture share?

Colleen Harkin:

I’m going to start reading Geoffrey Blainey’s recent book that’s just been released, Causes of War.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, yes.

Colleen Harkin:

And it’s his fourth edition first published in 1973 and the reviews on it say that it’s amazing. Illuminating under the current circumstances.

Rafael Epstein:

Gosh, light reading.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, correct. He’s a bit of a legend and I thought I’d delve into that.

Rafael Epstein:

Feels like a Kindle read to me. Not a book reader so much. Emma?

Emma Dawson:

My tip is a book that’s out today, actually. I think Sean Scalmer who’s at University of Melbourne has published a book called A Fair Day’s Work: The Quest to Win Back Time. Very timely given the productivity roundtable next week.

Rafael Epstein:

[inaudible 00:27:49]

Emma Dawson:

Such a nerd. [inaudible 00:27:50] nerd out.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh my Lord.

Emma Dawson:

It is a history of [inaudible 00:27:53] how the union movement over the years one shorter working hours. And it really shows that Melbourne was at the forefront of this in the world. But what Sean does really well is situated in current day. So he goes through the history, but he also talks about the current challenges and how really, I’d like to say, if we’re going to talk about the rewards of productivity, more time for people. They can’t make more time. We can only get more of it back.

Rafael Epstein:

There you go. They’re not building more time.

Emma Dawson:

Oh, that’s another conversation.

Rafael Epstein:

They’re not building more land.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma Dawson is with the Chifley Research Centre. Colleen Harkin is with the IPA. Thank you to both of you.

Emma Dawson:

Thank you both.

Colleen Harkin:

Good to see you both.

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne 15 August 2025 has been edited for clarity.