Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 18 July 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne and discussed the IPA’s research on Australia’s taxation system.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Justin Smith:

1-300-222-774 is the phone number. We are going to wrap up the big stories of the week for you. What was the big one? What did you want to talk about today? How did you see the week? 1-300-222-774. Here to help us do it, Emma Dawson, Executive Director at the Chifley Research Centre. Morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Justin Smith:

And Colleen Harkin is back and wonderful to have, a Director of the Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Hello, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning to you both.

Justin Smith:

Can we start off with, childcare continues to be an issue and there seems to be something new about it every day, more children being affected, more childcare, centres being named, more staggering detail that comes out about the alleged child abuse at the centres? Emma, what’s your reading of this week?

Emma Dawson:

Well, I was distressed about this when I was on the show two weeks ago, and I’m even more so now. I think everybody is. And as I said a fortnight ago, these problems are systemic. Now, there will always be people that seek to do the wrong thing, that have evil intentions that for whatever reason will identify areas in which they can pursue nefarious goals. But what we’re seeing really here is a system that is in complete crisis. This government’s done quite a bit to reduce the cost of childcare and early education for families, it’s done a lot to lift the wages of workers in the sector, but the underlying structural problems remain. And they are, as I said last time, primarily because we’ve moved to a voucher system and there are far too many for-profit providers in the system. Now, Chifley did some research about five years ago looking at this.

Justin Smith:

So on that, to simplify that, that’s the push for profit is the centre runs to make as much profit as they possibly can. And to do that, is there concerns around staff, cutting corners, the whole bit? That’s what we’re talking about.

Emma Dawson:

That’s exactly it. I mean, the profit model and the imperative to provide high quality care, they just don’t fit together. You’re trying to bash a square peg into a round hole and you can only do that by cutting all the corners. And what we are seeing I think is the inevitable result of 30 years of saying, “Let’s outsource this. Let’s allow people to make profit from systems that are essential, that people can’t avoid using.” It’s not a choice to put your children in childcare anymore. Your average household needs two incomes just to pay the mortgage or the rent. And so that desire to make profit means they have to reduce costs if their funding’s not going on. We already spend a lot of money, public money, funding childcare and early education.

As I was saying, Chifley did some research into this about five years ago and found consistently, my predecessors found consistently it was the for-profit centres that were failing to meet standards. It was the for-profit centres across the country that were experiencing problems with quality of care, with meeting the obligations on ratios of staff to children. And this is just another example of that. It’s a shocking example. It’s something that, yes, can happen anywhere, but it points to the fact that, why are we seeing the staff move around so much? Why are we finding out, well, this guy’s worked in X number of centres and they’re still coming out? Because one of the ways that for-profit companies minimise costs is to casualize their staff. It’s a huge part [inaudible 00:03:31].

Justin Smith:

Colleen, is that…

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, there’s a lot to pick up there, but let me just start with the premise that in order for a business to make money, it is inherently evil. And I reject [inaudible 00:03:43].

Emma Dawson:

No one’s saying that.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, but it is the suggestion that if a business is running for-profit, you just made the comment about them cutting all sorts of corners, that the primary goal is to make profit, and of course, if you’re running a business, it is to make profit, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t provide a good service as well. And I don’t want to undermine what’s happened with the allegations about what’s happened in the centres, but I do want to put it in context to say that it is not normal. This is an extraordinary scenario, heinous and extraordinary, and it is not normal. And to put in context the areas of the childcare centres that I do think needs addressing-

Justin Smith:

Can I ask you though, how do we know it’s not normal? Not necessarily the allegations and the abuse, but the concerns around who we know is working where and when? Actually, could that be the norm far more than we expect?

Emma Dawson:

It has. It’s become a feature of the system?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, no, I would disagree because that’s in any workplace. How do you know anyone that you’re working alongside is a normal and good person? Just registering people does not. You can’t, for example the working-

Justin Smith:

Working with children would be [inaudible 00:04:52].

Colleen Harkin:

The Working With Children Check, it’s a joke, an absolute joke. You walk in, you fill in a piece of paper and you’re given a Working With Children Check. That’s it. It serves absolutely no purpose. The only thing it will pick up is if somebody has actually served time in jail, for example. It doesn’t protect anybody from any future action a person might take. All it does is create red tape and bureaucracy so that people who want to train their local footy team on the weekend or serve a barbecue at the school tuck shop, they can’t do it unless they’ve got a Working With Children Check. It’s a piece of paper that serves no purpose, creates unnecessary regulation, and it’s ridiculous. It should just be removed.

In terms of the scenario about registering staff, the Victorian opposition have come out with a suggestion that says we could very quickly register all childcare workers under the banner of the Victorian Institute of Teaching. That’s a bureaucracy and an infrastructure that already exists. I actually don’t necessarily subscribe to that, but it is a very quick and easy solution to those people who are calling for full registration of childcare centre workers. The other issue that’s not discussed very much to me is the industrial relations component of this and an employer’s right to do due diligence on anyone they’re employing. [inaudible 00:06:13].

Emma Dawson:

If the police can’t doing a Working With Children Check identify problems in someone’s past unless they’ve been convicted, you can give all kinds of powers to employers to [inaudible 00:06:22] and they wouldn’t find it either if the police couldn’t find it.

Colleen Harkin:

You would. Because if you come to me and you’re asking for a job and you’ve had 27 places of work in the last five years, which is allegedly what this fella had, I’d be asking questions.

Emma Dawson:

But a provider in that system would know that actually the high level of casualization in the system means that that’s not that unusual. So it isn’t a red flag anymore, and that’s the problem.

Colleen Harkin:

If I can phone any of your previous employers and just ask about your work ethics and all that kind of stuff, [inaudible 00:06:52] solution.

Justin Smith:

People tend to move around a lot more than they used to.

Colleen Harkin:

Sure.

Justin Smith:

Just naturally now. So it’s not unusual to get somebody who’s got a resume with a big list.

Emma Dawson:

Can I say? In something like early childhood education and care, particularly with young children and their development and their learning, relationships are absolutely central to that. I know a lot of conservative people say we should keep children at home when they’re very young because having that relationship with a caregiver is really important. It’s just as important in a paid setting. So the casualization of staff is not serving children well either.

Colleen Harkin:

But that’s happening through all educational institutions from primary school all the way through. People work part-time.

Emma Dawson:

And it’s a problem. Part-time’s different because you’re [inaudible 00:07:30].

Colleen Harkin:

Not really. [inaudible 00:07:31].

Emma Dawson:

If you’re part-time permanent staff member and you’re there three days a week, the child knows that you’re there. It’s not different people coming in.

Colleen Harkin:

Little children don’t know the day of the week. Children don’t have a sense of how long a week is.

Emma Dawson:

Well, they do have a sense of, I’m going to see Molly this week. Here’s Molly. I’m used to seeing Molly. I’m using that name.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, but are you taking away from my industrial relations point is that if I’m going to apply for a job and I’m only going to tell you, one person that you can call as my referee, that means that I’m controlling the situation rather [inaudible 00:08:03].

Emma Dawson:

I’m taking away from it, Colleen, because I think it’s a red herring. I think it’s a distraction from the real issue, which is the structural problems in this system. Yes, these allegations of the last few weeks are shocking, but it’s not. It’s coming on top of years of reports of failed systems, of under staffing, of poor quality care. It’s systemic problems.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, and even now, it’s a question and I don’t have the answer. It is a question, who says that you have to have one adult to four children? Where does the evidence for that come from when we’re talking about under staffing?

Justin Smith:

I just want to jump in, if you don’t mind. Anne Hollonds is the National Children’s Commissioner. I talked to her on Wednesday about the priorities around fixing the system.

Anne Hollonds:

We don’t have a Minister for Children at the national level. There’s reasons why we have a Cabinet Minister for women and women’s safety is a priority because that’s provides national leadership, coordination, and accountability for action. And I have been saying for many years, as have others, that we need to have that for children as well.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, we do have a Minister for Early Childhood.

Emma Dawson:

We do.

Justin Smith:

Yeah. So how do we fix it? How do we fix the system [inaudible 00:09:13]?

Emma Dawson:

We get profit out of care. I mean, it’s not something you can do overnight. I’m not talking about nationalising the entire system overnight. That would create chaos because we’ve allowed this situation to evolve. But essentially we need to accept that this system of having a voucher and saying you choose your service in a free market has not worked in the provision of essential and very sensitive services, particularly for vulnerable people. And we need to move to a non-profit model of care.

Justin Smith:

Colleen, quick last word on this subject.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I think, other than the heinous allegations of the last couple of weeks, I’m still struggling with, what actually are the structural problems? Because when we say that we have to have one adult to four children, where is the evidence for that? Why can’t we have one to five? Because if that’s what the system is failing, then we also, first of all, need to identify, where is that best practise? Who says that that’s actually what is required? And I don’t subscribe to the view that just because the business is being run at profit, that means it’s going to be a disaster.

Emma Dawson:

It is a fundamental clash between the principles and the purposes of making profit and providing quality care. And I’ll just finish on saying I only have one child. I’m just at the end of two weeks of school holidays. My sister had three under four at one point. One to four is already a lot of children to be keeping an eye on. You ask any mother of multiple young children under five, you can’t keep an eye on more than one or two of them at the same time.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, my background’s is in education. I have a Master’s in Education. I’ve spent a lot of time around kids. Yes, you can. Teachers do it all the time.

Justin Smith:

All right, we’re just getting started. 1-300-222-774. What’s been the big story of the week? We’re here with Emma Dawson, Executive Director of the Chifley Research Centre. Colleen Harkin is Director of the School Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. What do you think, 1-300-222-774, about this and any other story as we wrap up the week? I’ll be speaking, by the way, to the Victorian Commissioner for Children and Young People on Monday over a range of issues with that Commissioner. That’s coming up next week. 17 past 10. Back with more.

Justin Smith:

Wrapping the week with Emma Dawson and Colleen Harkin. Colleen, how did the PM go in China? Is he coming back with a handful of magic beans, or is he looking good, or how’d he go?

Colleen Harkin:

So a couple of weeks ago when we were here in studio, we were talking about the lack of meeting with Trump. And I didn’t see that as it being a big issue because I’m not one for got-you moment type things. But I am a bit concerned about the message that’s being sent at the moment. Six days in China is a significant thing to do without actually saying anything. And the big ticket items weren’t really on the agenda. The conversations about Australians in jail and the Darwin Port things, our defence budget, all of those sorts of really big ticket items have not really been given any oxygen.

And there is this ultimate scenario where, of course, we need to have a decent relationship with China because they’re a great trading partner, it’s hugely important. But there is the ultimate decision about when you’re getting into bed with someone figuratively, do they align with your values. And like or hate America, we have a great history of shared values of democracy and freedom of speech and all of those things that are the benchmarks, or they should be the benchmarks continuing of Australia.

Emma Dawson:

They don’t seem to be the benchmarks in America anymore though, do they?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, [inaudible 00:01:28] they are. And so the idea of who we are closest aligning ourselves with, I am a bit concerned that we do have a choice between democracy and dictatorship, and I think we’re walking a very fine line.

Emma Dawson:

I think the trip has been very worthwhile. This is our biggest trading partner, they’re in our region. Let’s remember that until this government came to power, there was a number of years there where our government was not even able to talk to the leaders in China where our trade had collapsed, where we were no longer able.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s because they put tariffs on. And no one worries about that now.

Emma Dawson:

And no one in the previous government was able to overcome that. Now, we’ve overcome a lot of that. We’ve restored good relations. This is not only an important trading partner, but there are a lot of Chinese Australians in this country that see that relationship as important. We should all recognise that it’s important. If we want to talk about who we’re getting into bed with, well, on the one hand, yes you’ve got a communist country in China, but we’ve got a country in America that’s arguably this administration, not America itself and the many people there that are very, very concerned about it, but this administration arguably sliding into fascism.

Colleen Harkin:

I think that’s the bottom line. This is the issue about prime ministers and presidents come and go, quite literally. Every couple of years, you can have a change of the personnel at the top of that tree. But the core principles of who and what a country is and what it stands for, I’m half agreeing with you here that China is a communist dictatorship. And therefore in my view, we of course have to have a great trading relationship with them, but we ought to be very cognizant of the values and making sure that we are maintaining our values.

Emma Dawson:

And I don’t think anything that’s happened on this trip puts those values into question.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I think there’s a hidden message somewhere in all of this that we haven’t had a meeting with America yet. And I don’t want to say Trump because it’s not about him, it’s about our relationship with America.

Emma Dawson:

Well, in that case, we have had meetings with America.

Colleen Harkin:

And we have had had six days in China.

Emma Dawson:

But we have then had meetings with America if it’s not just about Trump. So the prime minister, the deputy prime minister and defence minister, the foreign minister, they’ve met.

Colleen Harkin:

No, our prime minister has not.

Emma Dawson:

But not through lack of asking. It’s not as though the prime minister is snubbing the US.

Justin Smith:

But some people are putting a lot of stock in having that meeting. Are they not? There’s been a lot of attention about whether it should happen or why it hasn’t happened.

Emma Dawson:

What are we going to get out of it? Seriously, it’s a face-to-face meeting between the prime minister and the current president.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s PR.

Emma Dawson:

What is its relationships?

Colleen Harkin:

Exactly. But it is important. Like I said, a couple of weeks ago, I gave him a free pass. I’m not into every single thing matters.

Emma Dawson:

I don’t think meeting with Trump is going to do anything in particular for our relationship with America. And I think that the business is going on between the relevant ministers and the administration, as difficult as it may be at the moment, it’s a beat up. The idea that we have to look at the prime minister’s trip to China through the lens of whether or not he’s met with Trump, this is an attempt to create a culture war out of a trading partner trip, a very important diplomatic event. We can do both. We have relationships with both. And I don’t think it’s right to say, “Well, he did six days in China, he doesn’t care about America.” Its nonsense.

Colleen Harkin:

No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’ve said it a couple of times, we have to have good relationships with all of our trading partners. But there is a subliminal message here that when you spend six days with one and none with another, there is that…

Emma Dawson:

There are a lot of people trying to create that subliminal message, but I don’t think its there.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s not being created out of nothing, it exists.

Justin Smith:

Now, you have both been in a position where you’ve had to give advice. Colleen, you had to have given advice to people. And I mentioned this because I want to play you this. I spoke with Metro Trains CEO Raymond O’Flaherty about the train that derailed on Sunday and still has yet to be cleaned up. And during that interview, there was quite a bit of prompting going on in the background. I just want you to listen to this. We had a listener who had sent us a text and they said that they got a transport alert on Monday morning saying that this was an electrical fault. Was that a lie?

Raymond O’Flaherty:

Well, I haven’t seen that communication that went out. That certainly wasn’t in our official line. So I’m surprised to hear that.

Justin Smith:

Now, full disclosure here is I could hear another voice in the background. We did crank that up a little bit so we could hear exactly what was being said. So it’s a can’t comment under investigation. Emma, I’ll start with you, giving advice on the run, is that a good idea in an interview?

Emma Dawson:

If you want to talk about a PR fail. Look, sometimes it’s necessary. It’s obviously a fast moving issue. I think what it points to is the fact that we are so consumed about how things appear and how we spin them that often, we are less concerned with getting to the truth of that. If something like that’s under investigation, say so, just say so, because it’s a big deal in a city of this many people that is so reliant on our train network, for something like that to happen in the inner city. This is not out in the middle of nowhere where perhaps we might think that tracks weren’t being maintained, or that shouldn’t happen either. So no look to answer your question, just be up front with people. Yes, giving advice on the run maybe necessary during fast moving issues, but get your facts straight as much as you can before you go on.

Colleen Harkin:

And try not to let your advisor be heard.

Emma Dawson:

Text messages, writing.

Colleen Harkin:

I think the issue there, I’m agreeing with Emma, when something’s happening very quickly, you’d like to think that they’re on top of things. They may not necessarily be, but it is important to be as honest as you can at the time because public confidence matters. So I think it’s quite funny that you’re able to hear advisor in the background telling her what you should be saying. Perhaps they should have been the person taking the questions

Justin Smith:

I wanted to point out as well, yeah, that could be a new thing for us. We’ll see if we can give that a run. So I wanted to mention this as well because we also asked Metro Trains CEO Raymond O’Flaherty about the age of the train yesterday.

Raymond O’Flaherty:

This is one of our Extrapolers trains. They’re 10, 15 years old.

Justin Smith:

We’re being told it was made in 2002. Is that correct?

Raymond O’Flaherty:

So it may have been here that long. I haven’t checked the year of this particular one. That’s part of the investigation.

Justin Smith:

All right, so Metro Trains said they’d come back to us on that. They finally have. Our information was correct that the train was from 2002. It’s not 10 or 15 years old, it’s from 2002. Now, we have absolutely no idea if it’s got anything to do with what happened on Sunday, but the information that we got is that it was built in 2002.

Colleen Harkin:

That doesn’t sound very old to me for a train to be 22 years old. I would’ve thought something of that cost and materials that it’s made from, I would’ve thought it would’ve lasted a lot longer than 20 years.

Emma Dawson:

It’s about maintenance really, isn’t it? It’s about how much we’re investing in maintenance.

Justin Smith:

Well, let’s have a listen. This is Angus Mitchell, Chief Commissioner of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau when I asked him about it this morning.

Angus Mitchell:

We do know that trains that would put it in that vicinity of 20 years old, they’re trains that are well maintained and well operated, certainly have life well beyond what we’re looking at here.

Justin Smith:

There you go. We’ll see, we’ll see. The investigation, we’re probably not going to know for another couple of months from what we’re hearing. Just a couple of quick ones before we let you go, and a quick word for Colleen, the super tax.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I think it’s still a huge issue, this business of unrealized gains being taxed and unindexed, and now the treasure up hiding in there, this ability for him to tinker around the edges, unilaterally, after a bill’s passed by parliament, that it doesn’t have to go back through parliament, that he can tinker with it at the edges. I think it’s an extraordinary breach of power, and that what Australians need is stability and a government that respects its boundaries. I think it’s very dangerous territory that we’re entering into.

Justin Smith:

Emma, I wanted to ask you about did the RBA do the right thing on interest rates?

Emma Dawson:

Oh, clearly not. Unemployment’s gone up again fourth time in a row. I think they were wrong to hold rates last time. And I would expect to see if not a 25 basis point cut next month and possibly a 50 basis point cut next month. But to reflect on Colleen’s point there about the [inaudible 00:10:36], I think it’s a bit of hyperbole to say the treasurer shouldn’t be able to fiddle with taxes unless everything goes back to the people through the parliament. The issue here, what the Australian people really need, and we saw this in the treasury advice that was revealed by Dan Ziffer and Tom Crowley this week, we need more revenue in this country. And there are a lot of wealthy people that are hoarding a lot of money in superannuation and in other tax minimization vehicles. There is nothing productive about that money sitting there being saved and hoarded. And so if people aren’t going to realise those gains, then we need to look at ways of taxing wealth.

Colleen Harkin:

So listen to that attitude. What part of what I have worked hard for do you think you are entitled to?

Emma Dawson:

What part of our collective common wealth do I think the Australia-

Colleen Harkin:

No its not collective common wealth,

Emma Dawson:

It is, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

You just said individuals hoarding their wealth.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, yeah, and because many of them-

Colleen Harkin:

So what I have worked hard for that I have saved for do you think you are entitled to?

Emma Dawson:

Let’s be clear, most of the people sitting on big piles of money in this country have not made it through hard work, they have made it through luck.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s a huge assumption.

Emma Dawson:

And through rent, through basically buying land and sitting on it while the value went up due to…

Colleen Harkin:

But that is part of this [inaudible 00:11:50].

Emma Dawson:

I actually am in favour of tax changes that would people to invest and take risk and do things that actively make money.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, then we could save a whole lot of money on the 9 billion in regulation to do with green energy and climate change stuff. There’s a lot of money that is being wasted in our environment. That does not [inaudible 00:12:07] to go and attack people who have worked and saved.

Emma Dawson:

It’s not being wasted if its moving to the necessary next economy. I’m not attacking anyone.

Colleen Harkin:

It completely is. It’s saying you are entitled to [inaudible 00:12:14] for effort.

Emma Dawson:

It’s about saying you have done very well in this country with the settings we have provided to allow you to accumulate wealth, the tax concessions, the increase in land value, all of these things. You now need to contribute a little bit more so that the next generation can have the same opportunities you had.

Colleen Harkin:

The assumption there is that they’re not already contributing.

Emma Dawson:

And the fact is that anyone that is using Super-

Colleen Harkin:

If I have worked hard, I’ve taken risks-

Emma Dawson:

Anyone that’s using Super to hoard money and to-

Colleen Harkin:

Listen to that terminology.

Emma Dawson:

It is hoarding money. There’s nothing productive about money sitting in someone’s savings account being invested in offshore companies.

Colleen Harkin:

You are entitled to spend your money that you have earned the way you want to.

Emma Dawson:

But also live in a society, Colleen, in which every day, you drive on roads, you use hospitals.

Colleen Harkin:

And we all pay tax for that. The percentage of people who pay taxes is actually very small.

Emma Dawson:

In a civilised advanced economy, people who earn and hold more wealth should contribute proportionally more.

Colleen Harkin:

They already do.

Emma Dawson:

Well, why do we have such a huge revenue gap? We can’t afford to pay [inaudible 00:13:21].

Colleen Harkin:

Because we waste so much money on putting money into things.

Emma Dawson:

We actually have a very, very well targeted welfare system.

Colleen Harkin:

This whole renewables only scenario is costing us billions of dollars. We could cut those costs in two seconds flat-

Emma Dawson:

And let the planet burn.

Colleen Harkin:

I could solve the worlds problems tomorrow morning.

Justin Smith:

Hang on. Let me put down my popcorn and jump in here. That’s wonderful. But let’s end as mates.

Colleen Harkin:

We’re always mates.

Emma Dawson:

We’re always mates.

Justin Smith:

A very quick, something made you smile, Colleen, just a quick one.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, talking about the cost of living crisis, I read the other day that a Hermes bag…

Justin Smith:

I saw that.

Colleen Harkin:

… Sold for $14 million.

Justin Smith:

$14 million.

Emma Dawson:

This is what’s wrong with the world, my friends.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. I thought, well, I’ve got the wrong job, clearly.

Justin Smith:

Emma, something made you smile?

Emma Dawson:

I’ve got the wrong [inaudible 00:14:01] system. I took my daughter to see the movie Elio the other day. It’s a new Pixar film. And I’m doing a rare thing where I’m going, get out and see it before it’s left the cinemas. It’s not been a big hit because it’s an original story. And I think so much kids’ stuff today is either based on things we’ve seen before or their reboots or their sequels. This is a charming little story. It’s not a perfect film, but it’s a lovely, lovely film. And I think go and check it out in the last couple of days of the school holidays.

Justin Smith:

Wonderful to see you both. Emma Dawson, executive director of the Chifley Research Centre, Colleen Harkin, director of the school’s programme at the Institute of Public Affairs.

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne 18 July 2025 has been edited for clarity.