Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 31 July 2026

Rafael Epstein:

Joining us this week to talk about a pretty tumultuous week actually in Victorian politics. And one of my texts is reminding me that at the start of the week, we had a national alert test. Does anybody remember that? But either way, Emma Dawson joins you. She’s executive director of the Chifley Research Centre. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And Colleen Harkin joins us, director of Education at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning, everybody.

Rafael Epstein:

Now, Emma’s got a declaration, but it also means that she can be a trivia whiz master. Firstly, you’ve worked with Ben Carroll in the past?

Emma Dawson:

Yes, for a couple of years, about 15 years ago.

Rafael Epstein:

15 years ago.

Emma Dawson:

16.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. So I want to know if you’ve ever heard this nickname. It was briefly mentioned there, but this is Bill Shorten on 7.30 during the week.

Bill Shorten:

He worked at Kmart for eight years. I mean, some people call him the Kmart Keating.

Rafael Epstein:

Is that really a nickname or is that just in Bill Shorten’s head?

Emma Dawson:

It’s a classic Shortenism, isn’t it? Look, I hadn’t heard it, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Rafael Epstein:

Wouldn’t? But you’d never heard it before?

Emma Dawson:

No, I haven’t.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m not sure-

Emma Dawson:

But that doesn’t mean anything, right?

Rafael Epstein:

No, no, no. Because I bounce it off a few people and they’re like, “No.”

Colleen Harkin:

What’s a Kmart Keating? What is-

Emma Dawson:

Well, he worked at Kmart.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, but-

Emma Dawson:

So like Temu Trump, I guess. But-

Rafael Epstein:

Yes, it’s like Temu Trump. It’s like the cheap version, not as good as.

Emma Dawson:

It’s a classic Bill zinger. I’ve missed them. They’re good, the zingers. It’s great.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m not sure.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s not a very good nickname.

Emma Dawson:

It’s not, isn’t it? No.

Rafael Epstein:

I think because Colleen’s going, sorry, what?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, it doesn’t land.

Rafael Epstein:

But maybe internally, inside Labour circles, maybe it works. Okay. Let’s talk about the actual transition itself. I still think this is probably the most important part of what Ben Carroll has said. Keep in mind, he hasn’t really been able to do policy because it takes time to get feet under the desk and everything. But he did say this the first time he appeared before the media when we knew he was going to be premier.

Ben Carroll:

I am not Daniel Andrews. I am not. Jacinta Allan. I will do things differently because different times require a new approach.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ll start with you, Colleen. Do you believe him? Do you think it’s going to be different?

Colleen Harkin:

I don’t see how he can differentiate himself having been there by their side the entire way through. So sure there are words that he can say, and I think some people will buy it. Some people will say it’s a fresh broom. But it’s not like he was in a small time backbencher who’s all of a sudden came out to the front. He was standing there side by side, nodding alongside Daniel Andrews and Jacinta Allan. And he’s had positions of responsibility of serious standing for, what is it, nine years? So he cannot, with all integrity, dismiss that relationship.

Rafael Epstein:

So I just want to pass what you’re saying. I’ll come to Emma in a moment. Worth pointing out, Colleen’s been on the Liberal Party’s administrative committee and she’s now with One Nation. So make that point, sure, he’s associated with the past. I’m a bit curious though, because you watch politics closely, do you believe he could do things substantially differently? So I’m accepting your criticism for now. Could he do things differently?

Colleen Harkin:

He already has at least made the words that he’ll call the royal commission. That’s been a thorn in their side for a long time because Jacinta Allan was refusing to do it. And I think the average punter will listen to those words and go tick. The real issue will be what are the terms of reference? Does it really have any teeth or not? And the same with the extended powers of IBAC. So he’s kind of saying a few things that will satisfy some people, but the real detail will matter enormously. And then it goes to the issue of, if you believe that that is the right thing to do, which it is, how has he stood there alongside those people all that time and never opened his mouth? So there’s a real integrity issue there.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ll come to what the royal commission might look like. And I also want to ask you about what you think, what difference it makes to the election in November.

Emma, how do you view … You’re a creature of the Labour Party.

Emma Dawson:

Oh my God. Okay.

Rafael Epstein:

You rarely get that sort of anger on your phone. When people are in that fight, when they’re in those trenches as they were on Sunday and Monday, they say really nasty things about each other. How do you view that, the switch?

Emma Dawson:

I’m not a creature of that part of the Labour Party. So for example, I’ve never joined a faction. I’ve never been a member of a faction. I don’t get involved in that numbers side of the game. I understand it can get pretty nasty, but it’s not something that I’ve been part of or experienced directly.

Rafael Epstein:

You’re too focused on policy and practical things, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

I am a wonk, and that’s why you’ll never see me in any parliament ever. Look, tensions run high and people take it seriously because it is a serious issue. Who’s going to govern the state? And I think we’ve seen in Labour, we’ve been fortunate to be in government for a lot of the last 30 years, but when we lose government, a lot of really important things get undone and the state falls behind quite quickly. So there are strong passions there.

Ben will be a different kind of leader because he’s a very different kind of person, certainly to Dan Andrews. He’s a much more, I think … and I think they’re both terrific politicians. I don’t know either of them well, but from my interactions with them, they’re decent, well-intentioned people. Ben is a much more collegiate person. He’s much more … He’s a real listener. He takes notes whenever you sit down with him on anything. When I worked with him, he was-

Rafael Epstein:

He’s actually a bit like, he’s a details guy.

Emma Dawson:

He’s a details guy.

Rafael Epstein:

A lot of people say that he’s a details person.

Emma Dawson:

He’s a details person. Absolutely. And when I worked with him, he was caucus liaison for Stephen Conroy’s office, which is a role within an office that is responsible for communicating between what the minister’s doing and the rest of the caucus. So the rest of the Labour members of parliament. And it’s an important role because you have to communicate often quite complex policy to a big number of people. And Ben always took that really seriously. He really wanted to get his head around the detail of stuff before he went and talked to parliamentarians. And I imagine he’s the same with his colleagues today. So I think he will show a different style of leadership. I think that capacity to listen and to recognise that the royal commission is necessary is a change of direction and he should be given the clear air to make those changes as he needs to.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma Dawson and Colleen Harkin are with you, 1300 222 774 is the phone number. Reese is calling from Ringwood North. I just want to know whatever you make of this switch, if you think it’ll make a difference, if you’re happy to see it, sad to see it, don’t care, happy to see the back of them through by the SRL, whatever. 1300 222 774. Reese, you’re calling from Ringwood North. What did you want to say?

Reese:

Oh, good morning, Raf. I just wanted to give you my takeaway from this week. I just wonder why 12 months ago, maybe even 18 months ago, Jacinta Allan didn’t announce some form of inquiry that would say we’re hearing about corruption. We’re going to find out if it’s true. We’re going to get rid of what it is and make sure it doesn’t happen again. If she’d done that, she’d still be the premier and she’d be still charging onto the next election, in my opinion.

Rafael Epstein:

Great to hear from you, Reese. I want to bounce that off both of you. It seems to me that actually the big change, the government have been hit by claims about being weak on crime. People don’t like the suburban rail loop, and they wanted much more action on construction and corruption in the construction industry. What I think’s really interesting about this week is to have people in the cabinet. So whatever you think about SRL corruption and crime, people in the Labour cabinet were like, “Yep, those things are all problems. Those are all things we need to unwind.” So that seems to me, that’s the huge sort of flag waving moment this week.

Emma, is Reese right? If Jacinta Allan had announced a royal commission, she’d still be leader?

Emma Dawson:

Possibly. Yep. I think it is the big issue that has dragged her down over the last 18 months. And I don’t think, I think you saw from Ben’s reluctance to roll her that it needed to happen in a way that she resigned before there was any push that there wasn’t a great appetite to … No one was looking to replace her for the sake of their own ambition. Certainly if you were all about yourself, you wouldn’t take the reins of the party right now. You’d wait and hope-

Rafael Epstein:

This was about people saying we’ve got significant problems.

Emma Dawson:

This was about people saying they are out there. They’re door knocking ahead of the election and all they’re hearing from people is the corruption, the waste of taxpayers’ money. And I think I’ve been listening to your callers today too. There’s a lot of support for the Big Build in principle and for what it’s delivered for people. But people are rightly concerned about the integrity of those processes. And as any big project goes on like this to hear more and more claims coming out, reportage coming out of real problems, then yes, I think it’s a problem that the cabinet and a lot of MPs and people in the party have recognised as this is bigger than us. It’s going across the whole construction sector and it actually needs to be cleaned up. If we’re going to continue to invest in infrastructure for the state, people need to have trust in it.

Rafael Epstein:

What do you think, Emma? And do you think Jacinta Allan could have saved her leadership by calling something else?

Colleen Harkin:

Emma has just said so much that I wanted to pick up on.

Rafael Epstein:

Go for it. Go for it.

Colleen Harkin:

I think that part of … I mean, I’ve clearly not internally Labour, have information on it, but I think part of the reason I think I’d said on here a few weeks ago that there was no appetite to roll her because it was a poison chalice at that time. All of the polling was showing that Labour were going to be obliterated. So without internal knowledge of how Labour works, I would’ve thought that … I mean, he said no to her face a few weeks ago.

Rafael Epstein:

Is that significant or important?

Colleen Harkin:

I can’t stand the media gotcha moments, but I do think that there was a reason he was saying no, and it goes further than the issue of personal ambition, it was really that nobody wanted the job because there is so much trouble there behind closed doors.

Rafael Epstein:

Maybe let me ask you a different question. Do you feel vindicated?

Colleen Harkin:

No. No.

Rafael Epstein:

Because a lot of the things you would’ve criticised, people in the Labour cabinet ended up agreeing with you.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I genuinely want good for Victoria.

Rafael Epstein:

Sure.

Colleen Harkin:

So I don’t like the media kind of trying to have … He promised his daughter stuff. Sure, they’re media fun lines, but they’re not actually very helpful. The real issue is what’s been going on? Who’s been responsible? Who has known about it and for how long? And that’s where I think he has to hold responsibility for that. He was there for all of it. And I don’t think he can be disassociated from Daniel Andrews or Jacinta Allan. But that’s what the Liberal Party and One Nation should be doing is nailing him to the same mast because he was there all the way through.

The one line is that he’s coming out with about what he will do differently. I agree with you. It’s a different tone and all of that sort of stuff, but that’s not really the issue. The issue is what has gone on and how is it going to be fixed and that it can never happen again.

Emma Dawson:

When we see the terms of reference for this royal commission-

Rafael Epstein:

But just before you leap into that, can I just play what the new premier has said about that? I’ll come back to you, Emma. But Ben Carroll has asked about the terms of reference. We don’t have them yet. It’s not a boring phrase, terms of reference. It’s really important. It’s the weapons the royal commission can use. Here he is talking about what he wants it to be.

Ben Carroll:

But I said I want exhaustive terms of reference. No stone will left unturned. Whether it is top tier contractors, subcontractors, labour hire, government, unions. These will be exhaustive terms of reference. I’ll have more to add on that in the coming days and weeks.

Rafael Epstein:

Tell me what you make of that. 1300 222 774. Emma, what do you make of it?

Emma Dawson:

I make of it that that’s what we need. And with all respect to Colleen, I think everything you said there was fair enough. But I hope that it goes much further than who knew what in the government because I don’t think the people of Victoria … It goes to the integrity of the government. I think we’re hearing already that there’s a lot of documents that Ben Carroll and others in the ministry didn’t see around the Big Build. But the point is not who knew in politics in order to say, look at that bad person over there, don’t vote for them. It’s to uncover a systemic problem in the construction sector in our state because it is at all levels.

This kind of corruption that’s been alleged, if it’s found to be real and the extent of it to be as much as we hear, then it’s not due to one or two union officials and a minister or a bureaucrat that doesn’t want to know. It’s a systemic problem in an industry that is absolutely fundamental, not just to our productivity, et cetera, but to our way of life. So it needs to go much further than just who knew what back in 2018. It needs to be a proper look at the industry.

Colleen Harkin:

I think that’s a whitewash because the government-

Emma Dawson:

How can it be a whitewash if it’s-

Colleen Harkin:

… because the government give the contracts. So there are people who can be named, who can be held responsible.

Emma Dawson:

Sure, but it’s not just about that claim.

Colleen Harkin:

No, but to kind of sort of say these are systemic problems allows people to get away with stuff. It’s a society problem. It’s a systemic problem. There are individual people whose responsibility is to sign that contract. And people like Ben Carroll have not asked questions when they should have. So I’m not comfortable with the idea of just throwing hands up and say it’s a big problem.

Emma Dawson:

No one’s throwing their hands up. What I’m saying is it shouldn’t be a witch hunt. It should be a proper investigation of the industry.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, you used the term witch hunt. I’m saying it should be a proper hunt. And those people who have had the opportunity, had the responsibility need to be called to account. There is no excuses for what’s gone on. Allegedly, the $15 billion, if it is true, those people who are responsible for that, the individual bureaucrats, the individual politicians who’ve signed off on it, they are responsible. It’s our money that they’re dealing with.

Emma Dawson:

And the people that actually participated in corruption, whether they are contractors, whether they are big building companies, whether they are union officials.

Colleen Harkin:

And what about the contractors who have been told you have to do this? I mean, they’re actually victims.

Emma Dawson:

I think what I’m saying is yes to what you are saying, but it must go further than that. It can’t just be seen, even if it had waited until after the election and Labour had lost the election, the concern there was that if an incoming Liberal, One Nation coalition government would instigate something that would just be a witch hunt. We need it to go much further. We need it to be a proper process in the interest of the Victorian people to look at, yes, the processes behind how we spend taxpayer money. Absolutely. But also, this appears to be endemic to the construction sector.

Rafael Epstein:

In Victoria.

Emma Dawson:

In Victoria. And so that needs to be investigated properly, not through a political lens of who can we hang out to dry. But

Colleen Harkin:

I think that’s why he’s done it now, because for the Labour Party, it would be much preferable for them to sit out the terms of reference than somebody else.

Rafael Epstein:

Although can I just point out royal commissions don’t need to go through parliament. So whoever’s in charge, like if there’s a Labour royal commission up and running, let’s just say Jess Wilson wins, either minority or majority, she can change. She can change the royal commission. She can change the terms of reference. 1300 222 774 is the phone number. It’s clearly the issue, the significant issue that sparked Jacinta Allan, or at least the end of her leadership. Does it matter to you? And anything else in the news this week that you reckon we need to know? 1300 222 774.

Getting a few texts here. Colleen Harkin is with us from the IPA, she’s just joined One Nation. Emma Dawson is with us, she runs the Chiefly Research Centre. If I haven’t mentioned that this time, it’s basically the official think tank for the Australian Labour Party. On the text, “Yes, I love the leadership change. We don’t need the Libs. We need a cleaned up Labour Party.” I admire … Sorry, it’s not Ben Carroll, but it’s come through on the text as Tom Carroll. “I admire Ben Carroll for not saying anything. The cabinet meets, the cabinet makes a decision. And if you want to serve the party, then you stick with the decision that’s been made by the majority.”

Emma Dawson:

Correct.

Rafael Epstein:

“Division is deaf.” And someone else saying, “Oh my God, can we use the term witch hunt?” I actually think it’s problematic, but I think at the same time, it’s precisely what some people say a royal commission should not be. I used the phrase public flogging when I was speaking to Robert Redlich because royal commissions can veer into that sometimes.

Colleen, when are we going to get One Nation candidates?

Colleen Harkin:

Being announced on Monday evening.

Rafael Epstein:

Can you tell me … We’ve been promised … I know I don’t want to drag things out of you that you don’t want to tell us. We’ve been told there’ll be a candidate in all of the 88 Lower House seats. Is that the case?

Colleen Harkin:

Will be, correct. Yep. And on Monday evening, Upper House candidates are being announced and a bit of a leadership team and the Lower House candidates will be rolled out in due course.

Rafael Epstein:

Is there going to be a leader of the Lower House candidates? Is there going to be someone-

Colleen Harkin:

Well, you’ll hear all that on Monday night.

Emma Dawson:

Looking forward to your announcement, Colleen.

Rafael Epstein:

Someone will be put forward as if One Nation were to win a majority of this person would be premier?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, you will hear all of that on Monday night.

Rafael Epstein:

So there’ll be a leader and all that stuff-

Emma Dawson:

Premier Harkins got a reasonable ring to it.

Rafael Epstein:

1300 222 774 is the number. Colleen, I’m going to ask you, are you going to run? Are you going to be a candidate?

Colleen Harkin:

I’ll tell you on Monday night.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay.

Colleen Harkin:

I’ll come in and talk to you on Tuesday morning.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. We’ll do that.

Emma Dawson:

I’m free. I’m free.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ve got plenty of other things that I wanted to mention, but are there other things in the news, either in the Victorian front or the national front, or even the international front, because I’ve been listening to podcasts from the fires in France that are four times the size of Paris, by the way. The fires in France are four times the size of great, wider metropolitan Paris. But anything just that you’re concerned about in the news or that you think are interesting or do you… happy to keep talking Victorian politics.

Emma Dawson:

Internationally, I’m watching with great delight the rise of Andy Burnham to the prime ministership in the UK.

Rafael Epstein:

Why? Why delight?

Emma Dawson:

Because you could put a cigarette paper between me and Andy Burnham on how we think about politics. He’s from the same part of the world as I am. He’s the same age as-

Rafael Epstein:

So which bit of the world?

Emma Dawson:

Manchester, north of England, Lancashire. Steeped in the same principles. I met him last year when I went to the UK Labour Party Conference.

Rafael Epstein:

All right.

Emma Dawson:

I may have said to some of Starmer’s chief of staff that I expected Burnham to be PM the next time I came home. Manchesterism, the policy suite that he has developed-

Rafael Epstein:

Is that a real thing?

Emma Dawson:

Look, it’s shorthand for basically really old-fashioned labour values.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay, okay.

Emma Dawson:

And the work he’s done on policy with people like Matthew Goode and others is really impressive. And I feel for Keir Starmer. I actually think he delivered quite a lot and had a very, very bad run from the right-wing media, which is not unusual in the UK. But I’ve got a lot of… I’m quite excited about the Burnham prime ministership.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. I’ll ask Colleen the same question, anything she wants to mention in the news, but Steve is calling from Tarnet on some of the stuff we’ve been talking about. I think SRL though. What did you want to say, Steve?

Steve:

Yeah. Hi, Raf. I almost cancel suburban rail, but aren’t we supposed to be growing by double by 2050 or something?

Rafael Epstein:

I think the city’s doubling. I’m not sure if that’s the nation or the state that’s growing, but we’re certainly going-

Steve:

[inaudible 00:01:25].

Rafael Epstein:

… to have a tonne more people by 2050. Yeah.

Steve:

Yeah. So what happens in five, three, four, five years where you’ve got gridlock everywhere? Someone says, “Oh, what are we going to do? Well, let’s build a suburban rail with three or four times the price.” Just madness not to continue on with, whether you like it or not.

Rafael Epstein:

Madness not to continue on with it. Whether you like it or not, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

No, I think there’s been no business case for the suburban rail loop. We are in so much debt-

Rafael Epstein:

Well, there is a business case accepted by Infrastructure Australia. You’re allowed to criticise it, but there is a business case.

Colleen Harkin:

I subscribe to the idea that you need to keep developing to serve the community, right? But not at all costs.

Rafael Epstein:

$14 billion already signed. So genuine policy quandary, right? $14 billion has been spent. I’ve said this the other day. They’ve done the vertical tunnels. The machines that are going to be doing the horizontal tunnels are sort of going to be dropped down that hole soon. Do you stop?

Colleen Harkin:

I would.

Rafael Epstein:

14 billion in, you stop?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, I know. I know. It’s an extraordinary decision, but I think the cost of it by the time it’s done will be about 150 bill. And so I just don’t see that being a feasible project at the moment. I know things are always cheaper to build now than ever, but we’ve got $200 billion of debt. I just don’t think it’s something that we need now and there’s so many other areas that we need to spend our money on. So I’d hold off on it.

Rafael Epstein:

You’d hold off. Emma?

Emma Dawson:

I’m with the caller and I may be at odds with the new premier on this. So I read that he’s not the biggest fan of the SRL. I have always been a defender of the SRL, regardless of what I think about how it was established and the process and et cetera. Because I think that the people in those middle and outer ring suburbs are very poorly served by public transport. It’s a significant issue that relates to our cost of living, our standard of living, and actually that I believe strongly that long-term investment like that is something that governments should do.

Colleen Harkin:

I’m not sure how many people want to go from Box Hill to Cheltenham.

Emma Dawson:

Well, I think you’ll find out one of the reasons that we’ve got such low productivity growth, low employment opportunities, long commute times for people is because we don’t make travel between industrial suburbs easier for people that aren’t on high incomes. And the only people I hear complaining about this are people that have never been on the Western Ring Road, let alone out into the-

Rafael Epstein:

The Western Ring Road, one of my favourites. Colleen, I just want to give you… Is there anything else in the news that you [inaudible 00:03:52]-

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, I’ve been interested in the Fauci…

Rafael Epstein:

Right. Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

He’s 111 times-

Rafael Epstein:

That’s a witch hunt.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. Well-

Emma Dawson:

Didn’t he have a go at Sharri Markson?

Rafael Epstein:

He did.

Colleen Harkin:

Yes, he did.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes, he did.

Colleen Harkin:

But 111 times to sort of call his right not to answer the question. And the actual evidence that now comes out to show, he knew that COVID was not the deadly virus that it was being sold to the world as being.

Rafael Epstein:

Is that right?

Colleen Harkin:

The percentage of… Yeah, the rate of deaths, he was sort of saying it would be 2 to 3% and it was like less than 1%. In his diaries it says-

Rafael Epstein:

Was that people’s state of knowledge at the time?

Colleen Harkin:

Yes. In his diaries, he actually says that it’s behaving more like just a heavy virus.

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t know that testimony myself, [inaudible 00:04:29] but keep going.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, no, it’s fascinating reading because the world shut down on his word.

Rafael Epstein:

It did. Or it wasn’t just him. We made our decisions-

Colleen Harkin:

Well, [inaudible 00:04:38] it’s mostly on his story.

Rafael Epstein:

We made our own decisions.

Emma Dawson:

We made our own decisions.

Colleen Harkin:

Not really. A lot of it was based on what he was saying.

Rafael Epstein:

You always say this, you open up these massive cans of worms.

Emma Dawson:

At one minute to go.

Rafael Epstein:

60 seconds to go. Okay.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s great reading. Everyone should look at it.

Rafael Epstein:

Maybe the way to ask this question, do you think they ever get anything good out of those congressional hearings?

Colleen Harkin:

No.

Rafael Epstein:

Because they are so partisan.

Emma Dawson:

You want to talk about a witch hunt? I mean, if I were him, I would refuse to answer as well.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

No, but that’s because he’s got these auto pen excused for the last 11 years of his life. Everything that he’s done since 2014 has been auto-penned excused.

Rafael Epstein:

So what’s an auto-pen excuse?

Colleen Harkin:

The auto pen that Biden had.

Rafael Epstein:

I know what an auto pen is, but what do you mean? What’s an auto-pen excuse?

Colleen Harkin:

He’s been excused, presidential pardon-

Emma Dawson:

This is Trump-

Colleen Harkin:

… for everything that he did since 2014.

Emma Dawson:

This is Trumpist conspiracy nonsense. Auto-pens, Colleen. You’ve only been in one nation for four months, four weeks. What’s going on?

Colleen Harkin:

No, that’s ridiculous. Biden gave him a pardon for everything that he has done since 2014, and it was auto-pen signing.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, okay. Right. Got it. Got the connection. Sorry, I wasn’t quite clear on the record.

Colleen Harkin:

Right? That’s a fact.

Rafael Epstein:

Also, I’m not clear on the Biden pardon, so I haven’t got time to fact check you.

Emma Dawson:

I need another coffee.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s a fact. Go look at it.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ll see what I can do while we’ve got some news headlines. I’m going to ask these guys for their culture shares. I’m hoping that Colleen doesn’t refer me to any book that’s got anything to do with COVID. But let’s get some news headlines first with Natasha McFarland. Good morning, Natasha.

I’m not going to dive too far into Anthony Fauci. I will just read the ABC News story. Biden did pardon Anthony Fauci for offences between January 2014 and January 2025. It is aimed, according to Biden, to protect him from politically motivated persecutions. It doesn’t cover him for future actions or any new testimony. But I don’t want to go too far down that rabbit hole, but I think Yvonne wants to say something about it. So let’s see how we go. What do you want to mention, Yvonne?

Yvonne:

I just think that Daniel Andrews did a very good job keeping people safe during COVID. I think, yes, it is a deadly disease. And I have a lot of relatives overseas who absolutely though it was terrific because of what he did, because it kept most people safe. We didn’t want to wipe out the Australian population, which could have done if he had not have taken those steps. I think he did a wonderful job.

Rafael Epstein:

Good to hear from you, Yvonne. Look, I don’t want to… At this stage of the morning, I can see Colleen-

Colleen Harkin:

Can we revisit that another time?

Rafael Epstein:

So have you got a spare week of radio time?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, exactly.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m not sure I do. But Diane’s calling from Preston. What do you want to mention, Diane?

Diane:

Hi, thank you. I was surprised to actually agree with Colleen for once. I think holding people accountable is an important thing, but I was also wondering if she had the same opinion about robo-debt. Who was held accountable for that

Rafael Epstein:

And so that’s in reference to what Colleen was saying about a royal commission and the politicians and accountability?

Diane:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah. Okay.

Diane:

So I think it tends to be people in the political sphere want to hold people individually responsible when it suits them. But when it doesn’t, then it’s systemic.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, there’s an example of a royal commission that maybe-

Emma Dawson:

Can I just say I agree with the caller?

Rafael Epstein:

Please.

Emma Dawson:

I think anybody who has a job of that significance that the public depend on has to be held to account.

Colleen Harkin:

And I agree.

Emma Dawson:

Regardless of the political party.

Colleen Harkin:

And I think she’s absolutely right about robo-debt. It was really disappointing to see absolutely virtually no repercussions from that.

Rafael Epstein:

Although I don’t want to dive again into too much detail, but that seemed to me to be a Royal Commission that gave great leeway and a lot of power to the Royal Commission, but they decided to pull back-

Colleen Harkin:

Pull back.

Rafael Epstein:

… at the end when it came, especially to the public servants and the politicians. And maybe because of the evidence that was given, I don’t know, but that’s a classic example of go, do whatever you want on the Royal Commission. And it clearly left a lot of people really not happy.

Emma Dawson:

Which is why in most instances, I think Colleen and I have said we think we do Royal Commissions too often-

Colleen Harkin:

Are usually… yeah.

Emma Dawson:

… and they don’t necessarily-

Colleen Harkin:

You want to know the answer before you start most of the time.

Emma Dawson:

You want an outcome, right? You want an outcome.

Colleen Harkin:

But I agree with the caller. I mean, it doesn’t matter what political party you belong to, or you ought-

Rafael Epstein:

Accountability.

Colleen Harkin:

… to be transparent and accountable.

Emma Dawson:

Absolutely. We’re in a unity ticket on that.

Rafael Epstein:

My post script will be the Painters and Dockers Royal Commission. The Costigan Royal Commission started with a corrupt union. The Painters and Dockers ended up exposing wide scale fraud across the business community and arguably contributed to the downfall of the Fraser government as well. So Royal Commissions sometimes have extraordinary power. Sometimes they can be a damp squib. A culture share. Emma’s going to be reading Anthony Fauci and Sharri Markson’s books on the weekend.

Emma Dawson:

Oh god, no.

Rafael Epstein:

No, what’s your culture share?

Emma Dawson:

I’m going to be finishing Ross McMullin’s updated Light on the Hill: The History of the ALP. It’s a doorstop of a book.

Colleen Harkin:

Oh my God.

Emma Dawson:

The Prime Minister launched it at a fringe event last week. Ross is a fantastic historian.

Rafael Epstein:

When you say history, it’s like-

Emma Dawson:

So it was originally published in 1991 for the centenary of the ALP, and it’s been updated now for 125 years since the formation of the Parliamentary Labour Party. So he’s taken it up to, I think, 2025.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, so it’s actually everything that’s happened the entire time that the Labour Party’s been around.

Emma Dawson:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

Wow.

Emma Dawson:

And it’s not for the fainthearted.

Rafael Epstein:

No.

Emma Dawson:

It’s a big read, but it’s a good one. But if you want something a little less cerebral, Disclosure Day is now available to buy on home streaming services. That’s Steven Spielberg, sci-fi.

Rafael Epstein:

But you liked that, didn’t you?

Emma Dawson:

I loved it.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, right.

Emma Dawson:

It’s a proper old-fashioned sci-fi. It’s a Spielberg classic. And Emily Blunt is just exceptionally good in it. She’s very, very good.

Rafael Epstein:

I like it.

Emma Dawson:

So it’s a lot of fun.

Rafael Epstein:

I just watched the first half of Devil Wears Prada II Emily Blunt. She’s fantastic.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, I haven’t seen that yet. It sounds like it’s fun.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s also just available on streaming. But yours, Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

So I haven’t seen it yet, but I’m going to go to the Melbourne Museum who have an exhibition on the period of life of Romans. And apparently it has an immersion kind of thing that you get involved in, what life was like at that time. And it has statues and-

Rafael Epstein:

Do you wear a toga?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I’m not really quite sure. I’ll let you know. But I mean, I love stuff like that. I think sort of having an insight into civilizations of past, and they still have influence now. And apparently they’ve got a whole lot of things that have never been out of Italy before. So yeah, I’ll let you know next week or the week after what it was like.

Emma Dawson:

The Romans, you and every Gen X bloke in Melbourne will be at this.

Colleen Harkin:

The Melbourne Museum.

Emma Dawson:

That was a knowing laugh, Raf?

Rafael Epstein:

No, no. Romans are not my thing at all actually.

Emma Dawson:

No, no.

Rafael Epstein:

No, no. You could fill libraries with everything I do not know about Romans. No, I’m terrible on history. Colleen Harkin is at the IPA. She’s also now part of One Nation. We wait with bated breath to see if One Nation candidate’s announced Monday night. So we’ll get Colleen on the radio as soon as we can to work out if she’s part of that formally or not. Emma Dawson is at the Chiefley Research Centre, which is the official think tank of the Australian Labour Party. Emma, Colleen, thank you very much. Thank you.

Emma Dawson:

Thank you both

Colleen Harkin:

Pleasure. Thanks.

Rafael Epstein:

Third-

This transcript of Colleen Harkin on ABC Radio Melbourne from 31 July 2026 has been edited for clarity.