Colleen Harkin On The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 6 June 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne and discussed the IPA’s research on net zero spending.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Raf Epstein:

A reminder there. That was the voice of Zoe Daniel. We had Zoe Daniel in the studio on Monday, so there’s plenty been happening this week. Emma Dawson joins you. She’s the executive director of the CHIF, the research centre. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Raf Epstein:

And Colleen Harkin is with us as well, director of the Schools Programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning Raf, and good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Hello.

Raf Epstein:

Who are you backing? I’ll start with you, Colleen. Who are you backing in the fight between Musk and Trump? Sorry [inaudible 00:00:29]-

Colleen Harkin:

That bromance was always going to go sour, wasn’t it?

Emma Dawson:

Oh, yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, but like you said, the fact that it’s being played out publicly by Twitter is… I don’t know if it’s amusing or sad or whatever it is, but it was always going to happen. I think they-

Raf Epstein:

Was that your slide, did you get it wrong, calling it Twitter, not X?

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, yeah, sorry. Well, it doesn’t matter. Whatever it is.

Emma Dawson:

No, it doesn’t.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. But yeah, the fact that it’s all being played out publicly is… I mean, the allegations are pretty serious, if there is anything in that.

Raf Epstein:

Just to remind people, Musk is now saying the reason the Jeffrey Epstein files haven’t been released is because Donald Trump’s name is in them. And Epstein of course is accused of sex trafficking and paedophilia and everything else.

Colleen Harkin:

But I mean, there’s always been photographs of Trump hanging out together-

Emma Dawson:

They were friends [inaudible 00:01:16] work together.

Colleen Harkin:

Whether he actually did anything illegal is a whole other question.

Raf Epstein:

Do we trust anything either Elon Musk or Donald Trump say? Just before I get Emma’s take, I tried to get a take from the Prime Minister. He’s refusing to bite. A reminder, he’s going to have an in-the-flesh meeting with Donald Trump maybe in 10 days, maybe a bit later. Here’s the PM this morning.

Anthony Albanese:

President Trump is obviously an interesting character.

Raf Epstein:

Did you look at that news this morning?

Anthony Albanese:

Of course, people look at the news, of course they do, and it’d be disingenuous to say that we didn’t. But my job isn’t to worry about the relationship between Elon Musk and Donald Trump.

Raf Epstein:

No.

Anthony Albanese:

My job is to think about the relationship between the United States and Australia.

Raf Epstein:

Emma, can he think about the relationship between the United States and Australia without factoring in the fights that Donald Trump gets into?

Emma Dawson:

You can’t think about America at all at the moment without thinking about this extraordinary implosion of the bromance. I mean, the Prime Minister’s right, it’s his job to worry about the diplomatic relationship at an international level and not to get sort of dragged down into these online mud fights, but it’s pretty extraordinary. I mean, it’s not surprising given what we know about both men, what we know about the relationship, the very unorthodox appointment of Musk to some sub-cabinet role in the executive government. So it’s not surprising, but it is shocking in the longer-term context of thinking about this is the President of the United States and the world’s richest man, and when they throw their toys out of the cot, it actually has a bit of an impact on people. He’s pulling… “Oh, I’m going to pull my rocket ships out of here.” It’s not how the world should be run, it’s unedifying and a little bit terrifying, I would suggest.

Raf Epstein:

What’s terrifying is that when you say it’s not how the world should be run, the next thought is, “And so what?” It doesn’t matter how many times anybody says that, “So what?”

Emma Dawson:

I know. I know. The power of money, right? This is what happens when a great democracy sinks into plutocracy, and that’s what we’re seeing in real time. I think we need to take it really seriously. They’ve just moved another order to prevent almost all Muslim majority countries from… anyone visiting the US from those countries, they’re trying to block international students. If we are not alive to this being a serious problem… It’s amusing, right? It’s fun to go, “They’re having a spat on X or Twitter,” but these are dangerous days. And if this was the 1930s in Europe and we were just laughing along, I think there’d be fairly… we know there were very bad outcomes from that.

Raf Epstein:

Yes.

Colleen Harkin:

I think that’s an exaggeration. No, 1930s, I don’t know that we’d want to have that comparison.

Raf Epstein:

But the scary thing is… Well, let me ask you about that, Colleen. I do want to get onto the gas decision because we had so much feedback about that, the Northwest Shelf but just on the 1930s, there are parallels, right? There’s an increase in military capacity, there is an increase in erratic behaviour from very powerful economies. There is an increase in authoritarian behaviour. There is an increase in the United States, which is arguably authoritarian and demagogic interfering in other elections so that there’s enough there to be worried, isn’t there?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I mean, I’ll call you on the fact that America is authoritarian. It’s a democracy and he was put in place with a huge majority of the votes and stuff. So I’m calling on that. No, it’s not an authoritarian environment.

Raf Epstein:

His behaviour is not authoritarian?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, he’s an interesting character. I’ll give you that. His decision-making and behaviour is… it’s difficult to understand and it is rather chaotic, but I think that the people of America still are supportive of him and what he’s doing. The polls that we get are not what the Americans are actually saying and thinking and doing.

Raf Epstein:

Yeah, sure.

Colleen Harkin:

So domestically, he is still very well-supported.

Emma Dawson:

He did win that election and he won it significantly. But can I just suggest that in the American election, there were things occurring that if they were occurring in a developing country where we often send people to scrutiny and keep an eye on their elections, we would be raising alarms about not just the gerrymandering of districts and the suppression of voting-

Colleen Harkin:

But you didn’t say that when Biden was elected, all of these same conversations were around when Biden was elected and they were dismissed out of hand.

Emma Dawson:

I’ve been saying it since 2016 and as far back actually as the hanging chats, there are problem with the American electoral system that mean that somebody can win… I mean, the voter turnout alone is an ongoing problem. Thank God we have the system we have.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, actually, I-

Raf Epstein:

Can I come back-

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, sure.

Raf Epstein:

… if it’s okay, Colleen, I want to come back. Maybe just some parallels. I do just want to try and shift the bus on to some of the stuff happening here in Australia. Colleen Harkin and Emma Dawson are with me. It’s 13 minutes past 10. I reckon the single biggest issue we got text traffic on when the PM was talking was the extension of the North West Shelf gas project. It’s now going for another 45 years. The emissions from the project are worth 10 to 15% of the nation’s emissions.

It does have to meet net-zero from 2050, so somehow they’ve got to find a way to do that. It is still the case. I double checked this last night. I can’t find any numbers beyond 2122. If you drink beer, you’re contributing more tax than all of the gas companies pulling stuff out of the ground over in WA. It’s about 2.5 billion in beer excise. It’s less than that each year, the gas and oil component of the PRRT. So that’s a bit of context for you. Kim is going to be flying the flag for those texters who were concerned when the PM was talking. Kim’s in Ballarat. What do you want to say about that, Kim?

Kim:

Look, I’ve just really disturbed yesterday, seen a massive ad in the Ballarat Courier with Catherine King supporting World Environment Day 2025 saying, “I’m proud to be part of a labour government that is delivering real action on climate change and doing more than ever to protect our natural world for future generations.” And I’m just disgusted. It’s just a blatant lie in the local paper.

Raf Epstein:

Can I double check, Kim, I’m assuming you preference labour or voted for them?

Kim:

I did, yeah. I absolutely regret voting labour. I want my vote back.

Raf Epstein:

Okay. Look, thank you for expressing the sentiment. I don’t know how widespread it is, but there are certainly people along those lines texting in. I’ll start with you, Colleen. What did you make of the decision?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I mean, I’m going to start from the position that I don’t support net-zero, right? I think it’s a crazy policy and the energy and money and effort that’s been put behind it is Australian self-harm. So we have to have energy security, reliability, it’s got to be affordable, all of those things. So I am supportive of it being extended because we have to have enough energy for the country to run properly. And the money that’s been put into… for example, I think it’s something like 400% increase in government spending to support net-zero policies. That’s a lot of money in Australian context, and it is what is increasing the cost of living. All of those things that are surrounding that, increasing the cost of electricity for homes, all of that all packs on each other. So, I don’t subscribe to net-zero anyway. So I’m very supportive of the decision to extend scenarios that actually provide us with what we need.

Raf Epstein:

Emma?

Emma Dawson:

I do believe in net-zero. I think it’s the bare minimum we have to embrace if we’re going to tackle climate change and the impacts that we’re already seeing around us every day. And people in New South Wales dealing with terrible floods, people in farms in Victoria unable to feed their cattle, these things are all related. So I do think it’s the bare minimum. I think for the caller, there are a lot of people, and I know a lot of people that are saying, “Well, this is not what I voted for. I voted for a party that’s taking action on climate change.” It’s not that simple. The government is taking action on climate change. We are seeing a huge increase in the renewables in our grid to about 42%. Now, we should be at 80% by 2030, and that’s putting us well on the way towards net-zero. Yes, this gas plant has been extended by 45 years. That doesn’t mean it will operate for 45 years. It gives them-

Raf Epstein:

It means it can.

Emma Dawson:

It means it can. Absolutely. And the Prime Minister kept saying it’s an interim decision. It’s very unlikely that that decision will not go through.

Raf Epstein:

So you mentioned that, I’ll leave continue in a moment, but interim, it isn’t final, but here’s the PM this morning.

Anthony Albanese:

Look, we had to deal with… It’s an interim decision, by the way, so it’s not a final decision. The minister had to respond under the act, under the law. And under the law, what he has done is make an interim decision that the company now gets a chance, the participants-

Raf Epstein:

Participants, yeah.

Anthony Albanese:

… get a chance to respond to. So it’s not final.

Raf Epstein:

It’s not final.

Emma Dawson:

It’s not final. No. There’s a process here. And look, we have a very process-driven Prime Minister and a very process-driven government.

Raf Epstein:

But they’re not going to unwind the decision.

Emma Dawson:

I don’t believe they will unwind the decision. No. I think that there will be requirements around the damage and the output and as you said, net-zero on the gas. But the critical thing here is we still have, as Colleen has demonstrated, people in the country that don’t want us to go to net-zero, that don’t believe that we need to move to renewables only. This government does believe that and is pursuing that. They’re doing so in a way that will keep the lights on to use the vernacular. But we do need firming capacity in the grid here.

Raf Epstein:

We’re not getting much of that gas.

Emma Dawson:

We’re not getting much of that gas though. Most of it’s exported. But then we’ve got to say, “Well, gas is cleaner than coal. There is a role for gas in the transition.” If we are exporting it to other countries, what are we expecting? It’s really hard this one, isn’t it? It’s how are we expecting people to adapt their lifestyles? Are we going to say to everybody, “Look, there’s going to be a 6 to 10 year period where you can’t cook at home because you don’t have the energy source”?

Raf Epstein:

So you’re saying that’s why we’re exporting the gas so that others can do the transition?

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Raf Epstein:

30 years worth of Australia’s emissions, the gas we’re exporting.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah. I know. I know.

Colleen Harkin:

But we export coal.

Emma Dawson:

There is no good outcome.

Raf Epstein:

We do, we export a tonne of coal.

Colleen Harkin:

We export coal to countries who haven’t-

Raf Epstein:

A tonne of coal.

Emma Dawson:

And there are a lot of people on the other extreme of this debate that go, “Shut it all down tomorrow. We have to shut it all down tomorrow.” And there is a strong case to say if the planet was making these decisions, that’s what had happened. But there was also the demand of our lifestyles.

Colleen Harkin:

[Inaudible 00:11:55]-

Emma Dawson:

Well, if the planet had a vote and was saying, “I’m choking on all these fumes, shut it down.” That’s how some people see it. Just stop. But they’re often people that have the means to ameliorate the impact if we just stopped overnight using fossil fuels. Those arguments usually come from people that can afford to electrify their homes, that can afford to move to an electrical vehicle, right?

Colleen Harkin:

Of course, the greatest cost of this is on the people who can least afford it.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Raf Epstein:

Well, government’s got to get us there, don’t we?

Emma Dawson:

And government’s got to make hard decisions.

Raf Epstein:

Government does, right? [inaudible 00:12:24]-

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I don’t think we need to. I think this renewables’ pathway is crazy. There’s nothing… I mean, we’ve said it on this programme before, the whole-

Raf Epstein:

There’s not much science backing what you’re saying though.

Emma Dawson:

There’s not.

Colleen Harkin:

But there’s tens of thousands of solar panels that have been put in every week that are not recyclable. It is landfill waiting to happen. So if we want to have that-

Raf Epstein:

Do you know what the bill is at Hazelwood for the remediation of that mine? It’s billion dollars.

Emma Dawson:

Billion dollars.

Raf Epstein:

Every form of energy presents us with a problem.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Colleen Harkin:

Of course, yeah.

Raf Epstein:

It all produces the waste that we need to fix.

Colleen Harkin:

Sure. But the message to people-

Raf Epstein:

Solar don’t produce emissions.

Colleen Harkin:

The message to people is… Well, they do. They emit emissions in the making of them.

Raf Epstein:

[inaudible 00:13:04]-

Emma Dawson:

Because we’re still using fossil fuels to-

Colleen Harkin:

And other countries do all of that and we sell our coal to them.

Emma Dawson:

The science is clear, Colleen. No, no, let me finish.

Colleen Harkin:

The burning finish of coal and gas is-

Emma Dawson:

Let finish that.

Colleen Harkin:

We sell our coal to other countries who are allowed to create the emissions that we’re not.

Emma Dawson:

Yes, and what-

Colleen Harkin:

And so, the moral element of this argument is completely flawed because other people are allowed to have emissions and we aren’t.

Raf Epstein:

[inaudible 00:13:26]-

Emma Dawson:

Put the moral element aside, it’s a scientific argument that matters here. We have to stop burning fossil fuels sooner rather than later everywhere in the world if our children are going to have a livable planet. It’s that simple.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, the children are being terrified-

Emma Dawson:

But it’s difficult to make those transitional decisions about how we get there. And all I would say to people going, “This government’s betrayed me,” is look at the entire suite of policies and what’s being invested in renewables and I hope that there is some level of trust that this is a proper process pathway to get us to zero.

Raf Epstein:

I’m going to button that up. I want to give you 10 seconds, Colleen. Literally, 10 seconds because I want to move on to the stadium and the AFL. Quick response to that.

Colleen Harkin:

I think it’s a disgrace. What’s happening to the kids is that the children are being terrified that their lives are in imminent danger. There’s not going to be enough oxygen for them to survive.

Raf Epstein:

Thousands of people die in heatwaves. It’s real. It’s real.

Colleen Harkin:

More people die from the cold than they do from the heat.

Emma Dawson:

And the extreme cold is also influenced by climate change.

Raf Epstein:

I don’t think that’s [inaudible 00:14:28]-

Emma Dawson:

Can I bring you back on that with a stat?

Raf Epstein:

Oh, gosh.

Colleen Harkin:

More people die from the cold.

Raf Epstein:

I knew it was going to be more than 10 seconds. We’ll move on to Tasmania because I want to know if people feel that the AFL have actually helped destroy a government in Tasmania because maybe they have. 1300 222 774 is the phone number. Back with Colleen Harkin and Emma Dawson in a moment.

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This is ABC Radio Melbourne with Raf Epstein.

Raf Epstein:

Emma, I’ll start… No, Colleen, I’ll start with you. I’m just taking a guess. If I said to you around the corner, big exhibition, Renoir, Monet, would you go?

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, 100%. Absolutely. And I fully intend to go, this is the NGV. Yeah, 100%.

Raf Epstein:

Why?

Colleen Harkin:

It’s fruit for the soul or the mind, whatever you… I can’t think of the-

Raf Epstein:

Food for the soul.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, it’s beautiful to go and see these things in real life, to just sit, contemplate, see the beautiful artwork of… it’s magnificent.

Raf Epstein:

I had a sense I’d get a good answer from Colleen on that one. Emma, would you go?

Emma Dawson:

Oh yeah, definitely. And take the kids.

Raf Epstein:

I have been. It is amazing. The curator will be coming in at 10:30. The rooms, you just learn heaps. And I’ve got to confess I was a bit, “I’ve seen a bit of impressionist art,” but no, this is mind-blowing. It’s beautiful. So we’ll have a word with the curator at 10:30. Let’s give the baton to Linton, who’s in Northcote but wants to talk Tazzie. What do you want to say, Linton?

Linton:

Oh, Raf. Thank you for my call. I was just inquiring. As the construction cost of the stadium increases-

Raf Epstein:

Yes.

Linton:

… is the input by the AFL and the federal government increasing at the same rate that they put in on the initial project?

Raf Epstein:

No. No. No, it’s not. No. 15 million from the AFL, 250 million from the federal government. Everything else on the Tazzie Government, that’s how it works.

Linton:

It makes a big chunk of their GDP, doesn’t it?

Raf Epstein:

Oh, yeah.

Emma Dawson:

Oh, yeah.

Raf Epstein:

Absolutely. I’ll say the number again because I’m still getting over it. It’s a billion-dollar stadium. So sure, a quarter of that comes from the AFL and the federal government. They only spend 10 billion every year. So a $1 billion stadium, they only spend 10 billion every year as a state government. Emma, has the AFL blown up a government?

Emma Dawson:

It’s certainly played a bit of a part, you would say. I mean, it’s not been the most stable government down there for a while, let’s be honest. And it’s a lot to do with the voting system and-

Raf Epstein:

It’s expanded the crossbench, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Emma Dawson:

Et cetera, et cetera. This is a really… it’s a tricky thing for whomever becomes the next prime minister of Tasmania. Whether that’s a Labour-Greens government, which it doesn’t look like it will be, or a liberal minority government. This is a really invidious position to be in because a lot of people on that island want their team and they feel really passionately about it. But as you said, Raf, it’s around 10, even 12% of the state’s annual budget.

In terms of the states, if you leave the Northern Territory out, Tasmania’s the poorest state in the country, it has the highest rate of unemployment. It has the highest levels of poverty. It has the lowest rate of… sorry, the nerd in me is coming out now, but lowest rate of infrastructure investment across the board. And this is a massive infrastructure project, but it’s also symbolic. It’s symbolic of states rights of Tasmania having a team. It goes to so many issues around how this country operates, how we think about inclusion and are we in this together? Should the other teams, let alone the rest of the country be subsidising this team? It’s a fascinating and very difficult issue. And I would say one that’s uniquely Australian in many ways.

Raf Epstein:

I think there’s a fair few states in the United States especially that have had serious state government financial problems because of stadiums.

Emma Dawson:

Because of stadiums, sure.

Raf Epstein:

Because of stadiums. I think stadiums… So in some ways, it’s not unique at all.

Emma Dawson:

But the federal issues, the federation issues around it and the arguments coming from the AFL are really political. “Oh, we don’t want our other teams subsidising this.”

Raf Epstein:

Don’t forget, politics is the game. AFL is where the real politics are played.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Raf Epstein:

Don’t forget that.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, the real money and the real power.

Raf Epstein:

Colleen, I do want an opinion from you, but I just want to hear… This is the way the PM is talking about it. So he’s pledged the 250 million and no more. Here he is.

Anthony Albanese:

Great cities need great public transport and Victoria is getting that with the Melbourne Metro and the issues on Suburban Rail Loop have been worked through, connected up with of course the Airport Rail Link as well.

Raf Epstein:

I’ll ask you the same question, Colleen, has the AFL destabilised or brought down the government?

Colleen Harkin:

It’s like bread and circuses to me. I’m not a football fan, so I preface it in saying I don’t really understand the gut-wrenching support that some people put behind these things. But 10% of your State GDP is an extraordinary budget for any infrastructure, let alone a sporting field that will be used what, once a week and a couple of times during the week? It’s outrageous really. I don’t know, they’ve got a couple of football fields that they could use, haven’t they? What is the-

Emma Dawson:

I’m a Hawke supporter. We play down there all the time.

Colleen Harkin:

Right. So what is the problem with using the fields that they’ve got? I mean, it’s-

Raf Epstein:

Doesn’t generate enough cash.

Emma Dawson:

And they’re bad for TV.

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, right. Okay.

Emma Dawson:

Let’s be honest. A big part of this is that they’re bad for TV.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, do they get rights back from the TV rights? If they spend this money, will they get percentage of the TV rights?

Raf Epstein:

Yes, they would. They get a share, yeah. That’s the whole point.

Colleen Harkin:

Right.

Emma Dawson:

I told you I don’t follow football very well.

Raf Epstein:

That’s the whole point. They’d be the 19th team. They’d get a 19th of all the assets, but you’ve got to add an extra… I don’t know what 1 in 18 is as a percentage, but you’ve got to add that slice to the pie. While I have time before the news headlines and while I brush off my Renoir notes, there’s this amazing moment actually in the exhibition, you walk… there’s a life-size picture of him in his garden in colour taken in the 1920s.

Emma Dawson:

Oh, wow.

Raf Epstein:

… and there’s footage of him painting that someone’s taken-

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, wow.

Raf Epstein:

So they’re really working hard to make you understand the context that the art is created. And it’s not just Monet and Renoir, but they’re the names that come to the top of my mind.

Emma Dawson:

Can’t wait.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Emma Dawson:

Fabulous.

Raf Epstein:

But Colleen, before you go to the NGV to see that, do you have someone on TikTok I should follow or you’ve just discovered one of Shakespeare’s lost plays or something?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I’ve been reading a book called Agent Sonya by Ben Macintyre and it is a fabulous… It’s a true story of a woman with three children who was a German-Jewish-Russian spy and it’s fantastic. There are-

Raf Epstein:

So, when?

Colleen Harkin:

1930s.

Raf Epstein:

Right.

Colleen Harkin:

It is fabulous. There are parts of it that are very dense and if you’re like me, reading through lists of foreign names and dates and stuff, I have to really concentrate when you’re reading those parts. So, there are parts that are difficult, but the book itself is an amazing story and there’s a fantastic addendum that I won’t say because it’s such a surprise post-book reading what happened to… I can’t tell you the date, otherwise I’ll give away the-

Raf Epstein:

No, it’s okay.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s fabulous.

Raf Epstein:

Agent Sonya by Ben Macintyre.

Colleen Harkin:

Agent Sonya, Ben Macintyre.

Raf Epstein:

A new book?

Colleen Harkin:

No, I think it’s been around for a couple of years and I just discovered it.

Raf Epstein:

Been around for [inaudible 00:22:04]. Okay.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Raf Epstein:

Understood. And it’s in the ’30s. Real things that happen in the 1930s?

Colleen Harkin:

Absolutely. It’s all true.

Raf Epstein:

It’s all non-fiction. Okay, that sounds good, Agent Sonya. Sounds like The Americans before it got updated by other real-life spies. Emma, yours?

Emma Dawson:

Mine, and I think you’ve seen it too, Raf, is a movie called Mountainhead, which I think… Is it on Max? I think it’s on HBO Max.

Raf Epstein:

It’s on HBO Max.

Emma Dawson:

And it’s from-

Raf Epstein:

[inaudible 00:22:26]-

Emma Dawson:

… Jesse Armstrong, the creator of Succession. I had nominated this before the overnight blow-up of the bromance, but very pertinent to that because it’s about four ultra-ultra-wealthy tech billionaires meeting in this ridiculously over-the-top mountainside home of one of them called Mountainhead, of course, after the Fountainhead of Ayn Rand fame. If you want to understand why this fallout between Trump and Musk was inevitable, watch this movie. This is about men who basically run the world through having a lot of money, have no ability to relate to other people. Everything is transactional. It’s fascinating. It hasn’t got terribly good reviews actually, but I found it very engrossing and a bit like Succession. It was one of those things where I watched it with my full attention. I wasn’t scrolling on my phone or doing anything else. It’s worth watching if you want to… It’s also terrifying.

Raf Epstein:

It’s absolutely terrifying.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Raf Epstein:

Mountainhead is the name of the show. You’ve got to get Max. And Agent Sonya?

Colleen Harkin:

Agent Sonya.

Raf Epstein:

Agent Sonya is the name of the book. Colleen Harkin with the IPA. Emma Dawson is with the Chifley Research Centre. Thank you to both of you.

Colleen Harkin:

Thank you. Have a nice weekend.

Emma Dawson:

Thanks, Raf. Thanks, Colleen.

Raf Epstein:

Just for-

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne 6 June 2025 has been edited for clarity.