Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 7 November 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on ABC Melbourne Mornings with Rafael Epstein to discuss the IPA’s research on Australia’s housing crisis.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Zohran Mamdani:

Turn the volume up.

Rafael Epstein:

The four words from the new mayor of New York City to Donald Trump who’s known to watch TV but with the sound down. But let’s be honest, it’s the best way to watch the television, right, with the sound down just make sure you turn up the sound on your radio. We’re joined by Colleen Harkin, she always has the sound up on the radio and the TV because she has to because she’s the director of the schools programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And Emma Dawson doesn’t listen to the radio and doesn’t watch TV. I don’t know what I’m saying. And she’s the executive director of the Chifley Research Centre. Good morning Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning. And nothing could be further from the truth.

Rafael Epstein:

I was imagining it’s probably on too much. Okay. I do want to get to the side of the federal and the state liberal parties. On the one hand, it’s not that remarkable but it seems to be more and more the case. If you’ve got a big public sector job you get a massive salary. The guy who is the top public servant for the Suburban Rail Loop Authority gets $900,000 a year. Now, it’s not the government that sets that, it’s the Remuneration Tribunal that sets that salary. It’s a lot of money. Here’s the opposition’s Richard Welch.

Richard Welch:

This is a major project in Victoria. The person running it is being given a salary higher than the prime minister, higher than the premier. It’s an extraordinary salary. And he’s a fly in, fly out CEO.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, I will start with you. I’m guessing the IPA is not a fan of these sort of salaries. A massive project, you probably hate it. But really big, really complicated. You want it done well. You got to pay a lot, don’t you?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I’m no fan of the project, but let’s put that aside, right? The issue about the salary. Of course, you have to pay people well for what they do. But the question is, is it really worth 900 grand? That’s an extraordinary amount when you look at … I mean, even the president of America doesn’t get that much money.

Emma Dawson:

Well, not legally. Sorry. He gives it away.

Colleen Harkin:

Now let’s not talk about Trump, okay? My understanding is, from your snap just then, that he doesn’t live in Melbourne he’s not experiencing the lifestyle.

Rafael Epstein:

He’s here Monday to Friday.

Colleen Harkin:

Right.

Rafael Epstein:

He’s not here on the weekend.

Colleen Harkin:

And I guess on the one hand, maybe that doesn’t matter because as long as you’re doing your job and you’re doing it well. But I do baulk at 900 grand for any sort of inverted commerce public service job. It’s a lot of money.

Emma Dawson:

Eye-watering that amount of money.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s not unusual I will point out. Some of the senior people at the ABC get eight or 900 grand. The managing director gets a million. They are not unusual. I can tell you-

Colleen Harkin:

I know.

Rafael Epstein:

Presenters aren’t getting those wages. But they are not unusual public sector wages.

Colleen Harkin:

I know this now, right? I was well into my 30s before I realised the level of income that some people have. It was just completely foreign to me. I grew up in Moe. The median wage in this country so not just the … The average is about just under 100 now so it’s nine times the average. It’s 14 times the median. The median wage is $67,000. That means half of us earn less than that, right? It’s an eye-watering amount of money.

Emma Dawson:

It’s also the issue of accountability because a lot of these big project jobs get paid very well. And then they don’t necessarily have the same accountability when things are going wrong, when they’re going-

Colleen Harkin:

The accountability-

Emma Dawson:

Well over budget, well over time.

Rafael Epstein:

What you both are saying might … May well be objectively true. Tonnes of-

Emma Dawson:

I know.

Rafael Epstein:

People in the corporate sector. I mean, there are a lot of people. It’s complicated, I’d hate to have to run the ABC. It’s just insanely complicated. It’s like herding a bag of stray cats-

Colleen Harkin:

[inaudible 00:04:15] I think-

Rafael Epstein:

Right?

Colleen Harkin:

I’d commute from Brisbane to Melbourne every week for even $900,000.

Emma Dawson:

No.

Rafael Epstein:

Not even attempted to do that.

Colleen Harkin:

I would.

Emma Dawson:

I’ve never been motivated by money, Colleen.

Rafael Epstein:

If the government’s listening, Colleen is happy to take on the administration [inaudible 00:04:28].

Colleen Harkin:

Emma, not so much. But we’re told this all the time, we’re told it by the corporate sector, “Well, we have to, we have to compete. These are the wages and you need to compete”-

Rafael Epstein:

That’s the line.

Colleen Harkin:

“For this talent.” The amount of money going to top executives, whether it’s public sector, whether it’s private sector, compared to the average worker is completely out of control. It’s not as bad here as it is in America.

Rafael Epstein:

$1 trillion they just approved Musk-

Colleen Harkin:

That’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

Elon Musk’s wage-

Colleen Harkin:

That’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

Of $1 trillion for Tesla.

Emma Dawson:

Can buy a lot of ketamine with that. You can buy a lot of shoes and champagne with that. I’m being naughty today. Sorry, I have not much sleep.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes. Well, you haven’t been taking enough ketamine. It’s 11 minutes past 10:00, we’re going to stop saying naughty things. 1300 222 774. It’s an important one. Should we be paying people who do this stuff that much money? Feel free to buy into, he does fly out to Brisbane on the weekends if you think that’s important. Either way, it’d be great to hear from you. Emma, what is going on in the Liberal Party? This is something I said to David Spears. The poll said the nation was saying yes to the Voice. The Nat said no, Dutton said no, the nation said no. Maybe it’s the same on net zero.

Emma Dawson:

No, I don’t think it is. There’s a science to this, right? People can see climate change, they can see it in action. Even if some people are saying no to net zero and are still in denial about climate change happening, it is literally a dying point of view. Younger people are very exercised about this and it’s showing up in all our voting. The Voice can’t really be compared to me, it was a … That was a value judgement , it was easy to exploit, it was about human rights. I was very distressed with the outcome, let’s be honest.

What’s happening here is the Nats are being driven by their own constituency, by the loudest voices in the regions that are objecting to renewable infrastructure being put on farmland, for example. Although there are many people as well in those communities that do want it and are taking up the offer. The Libs are in all kinds of trouble on this. The reason that they lost those blue chip inner city seats in 2022 was primarily climate change. They were beaten by professional women who shared their views … Most of them shared their views economically. Most of the so-called Teals voted, for example, against Labor’s industrial relations changes with the exception of Zoe Daniel and Monique Ryan. They were furious that the Liberal Party had been recalcitrant on action on climate change. And so this puts the libs in a very, very difficult position. They cannot win government without getting back some of those urban seats. They have very few urban seats. They also cannot win government on their own without the nationals. But net zero is a real … It seems to be about the slogan rather than the issue.

Rafael Epstein:

It is literally about the words more than the policy.

Emma Dawson:

Means it’s become an entirely emotive issue for that party when actually it’s one grounded in science and fact.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, can I … I put something to Emma. There’s only one liberal MP in New South Wales who can stand on a beach. There’s not a single coastal liberal seat all the way up and down the New South Wales coast. There’s no one on the harbour, there’s no one in the centre of Melbourne. They’ve, basically, vacated Adelaide and Brisbane. If they go down this path, the Liberal Party, can they win government?

Colleen Harkin:

I think they can, right? I think the Liberals are, obviously, in disarray at the moment. I know Labour probably look at it and are quite amused at the level of disarray. But it is actually good for the party to have that fight internally, although it’s being played out fairly publicly. But to sort out where it is going. Emma, I disagree with you. I think the whole net zero argument is a moral one and that people want … Everybody wants to leave the universe in a better place, but what has-

Rafael Epstein:

Well, let’s just focus on the [inaudible 00:08:43].

Colleen Harkin:

But what has happened-

Rafael Epstein:

Again.

Colleen Harkin:

That the reality of the cost and the provision of services is a problem. 79% of people want reliable and affordable energy, that’s the reality of life. And being able to put food on the table, heat their homes to whatever it is.

Emma Dawson:

Now, is there 21% of people that don’t want reliable energy because they’re a bit crazy?

Colleen Harkin:

No. 79% of people want reliable and affordable energy.

Rafael Epstein:

Can you address Emma’s point? You’re on a loser demographically. I mean, we have more millennials now than boomers voting-

Colleen Harkin:

Sure.

Rafael Epstein:

That’ll get worse at the next election.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, no. Because what happens is as they get older and they’re starting to pay for their own bills, they also start to realise that energy is the economy and there’s no … That you have to address that stuff. I think if you ask the average person on the street what net zero means, they wouldn’t even know actually what it means. And if you said to people, “Let’s move towards this clean energy scenario when we’ve got the technology that will work because the solar panels and wind turbines don’t work.” They’re not-

Rafael Epstein:

They do.

Emma Dawson:

Come on, they do work.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

They are not going to provide the-

Rafael Epstein:

So in what way do they not work?

Colleen Harkin:

They can’t provide the high-intensity energy that’s required for manufacturing for the data centres. Data centre requirements are growing exponentially and we are being left behind.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s what the [inaudible 00:10:02] for, isn’t it, if you can’t do it?

Colleen Harkin:

No, there’s not enough.

Emma Dawson:

We’ll make more. We have plenty of gas. We’ll make much more. We’re exporting a lot of it and we’re not getting a good return on it is the problem.

Colleen Harkin:

To your point about the Teals and these-

Rafael Epstein:

Very briefly if you can Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

[inaudible 00:10:11] is that they voted for new coal subsidies, right, so we need it. We’re going too fast. No matter what you think about climate change, no matter what you think about clean energy, we’re going way too fast, way beyond ourselves.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen Harkin’s with me from the IPA, Emma Dawson is with me from the Chifley Research Centre. I do want to get a chance to focus on the state liberals as well. But we were talking about the head of the SRL, Frankie Carroll is his name. A package that is set by the Remuneration Tribunal. Mind you, the state government would set his executive pay level whether it … When it goes up or down, that’s set by an independent advisor. He does go to Brisbane on the weekends, he pays for the commute. Just for real clarification, the state government pays for some of the urgent flights. That’s the basic gist of the story. Pete’s calling about that from Brisbane. What do you want to say Pete?

Pete:

If you want to get somebody that’s going to do the job right, Frankie Carroll’s the man. Frankie is not a politician, he doesn’t swan around going to cocktail parties. He’s on the ground 24/7. He’s running a show that’s … It’s a very, very difficult job to do.

Rafael Epstein:

So do you know him or you just know his reputation?

Pete:

I have worked for him-

Rafael Epstein:

Right. Okay.

Pete:

In the past. And he’s dedicated, he’s a hard worker. He’s a worker, he’s not a politician. He’s a bloke that’s down there on the ground talking to people, getting things done. And he’s putting out bushfires of the wet sock some days, and he’s doing that 24/7.

Rafael Epstein:

So quick description. I don’t want you to reveal too much, but description of him as a manager. What type of manager would you say he is?

Pete:

He’s inspirational.

Rafael Epstein:

I like that.

Pete:

And he keeps people cohesive and working together. Public service is a pain in the butt at the best of times. But Frankie’s one of those blokes that just makes it work. And if he got hit by a bus tomorrow they’ll find somebody to replace him but it’d be a bloody hard job to do.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. Look, I appreciate you calling Pete. Just some of the texts that have come in on that. You heard what Colleen had to say about where the federal liberals are going, and you heard what Emma Dawson had to say. So buy-in, is it a … The path to success for the Liberal Party federally or not? But just on the SRL, I got this text. “For that money he should have to live within 100 metres of the construction zones. I’ll give him a pair of crappy noise-cancelling headphones the big bill gave my parents to counteract the constant house vibrations they had in North Balwyn before they had to move.” I’m guessing that’s a North East Link project. That is a monster of a project. If you live near it you know what I mean.

This text is saying, “The CEO could fly overseas for all I care as long as he’s the best person for the job and it gets built.” Someone else texting, and this one stings. “He gets $900,000 and I get made redundant from cohealth so that’s where the funding is going.” That’s a text from Grant. And Tim in [inaudible 00:12:59] has this. “Raf, 900 grand is small change for a footballer.” Nice Tim.

Rafael Epstein:

Something else we spoke about this week, and let’s be honest, we’ve been speaking about it … Have I not spoken about housing in my 14 or 15 years on this radio station? Probably not. We spoke about it this week. The example popped up on Breakfast. Lizzie Skeels got in touch with the Bob and Sharnelle show. She’s a social worker. Her partner’s a forest firefighter. They live in Moggs Creek on the Surf Coast and they have to move out. Here’s what they said to Breakfast.

Lizzie Skeels:

In fire season, my partner needs to be in a half an hour range of the fire depot. Yeah, not being in that range, it puts a huge strain on the fire team for all workers. Just that travel time with burnout and being able to keep workers long term, the impact of that is huge.

Rafael Epstein:

We also had a chat to the mayor of the Surf Coast Shire. He says there are people in Lorne, which is just a bit further up the Great Ocean Road. They are camping and sleeping in their cars. They’ve got jobs, but they can’t get a house. We’re talking about both hospital workers and health workers. So both key workers and people that are key for the tourism industry. Colleen, I’ll come to you. Can we solve that problem of housing?

Colleen Harkin:

In terms of the cost or the availability?

Rafael Epstein:

Any of it.

Colleen Harkin:

I think that’s the issue is that there’s no silver bullet. There is so many layers of problem in terms of the cost of housing, the availability. I know where Em’s going to go with this conversation. But, I mean, there are elements to this that one of them is to open up more land, to stop decentralising, because that just creates pressure on top of pressure. There’s plenty of places around Victoria where there are vast areas of, like Green Wedges, that actually don’t really serve that purpose anymore.

Rafael Epstein:

It costs a lot more to serve those people. The housing is cheaper. It costs the government a lot more to the [inaudible 00:01:57]-

Colleen Harkin:

That’s only a short term issue. We spend a lot of money on other things that, in the longer term view, everybody will be better off if we actually decentralise a bit. In terms of the cost of purchasing houses, I mean, younger people have a whole lot of costs that we didn’t have when we were … HECS debts, mandatory super, bank guarantor insurance sort of stuff that I never understand because if you default on a loan, the bank owns your house anyway.

Rafael Epstein:

Even they don’t want to sell it.

Colleen Harkin:

Right? So there’s a whole lot of costs that are preventing them from actually putting their own money into getting into the housing market. There is no silver bullet to me. There’s about four or five different areas that all need to be addressed.

Rafael Epstein:

We’re failing. Emma?

Emma Dawson:

It is a wicked problem, but it is absolutely imperative that we come up with a solution, particularly for essential workers like this. You cannot have a functioning society-

Rafael Epstein:

Can you solve it for essential workers? So the Surf Coast Shire said to us, I think they bought a few blocks of land. They’ve built a little bit. But I mean, even the state government builds … I don’t know, let’s just say the state government builds a 300 flat block of apartments in Anglesea or Lorne. Not going to solve the problem.

Emma Dawson:

No, no. No single arm of government can do it. This is not just an Australian problem. This is a world problem, right? The cost of housing has gone through the roof. We are seeing asset price inflation, particularly since the GFC. It’s a global phenomenon. I was in Europe recently and people were saying, “How can Australia have a housing crisis? You’ve only got 27 million people on this vast land mass.”

Decentralising is one of the solutions, but that’s not going to work for these people that … If you’ve got to live within half an hour of your firehouse or within easy commute of the hospital you work at, we need these people to be located close to where the jobs are. This is a big part of the reason that Mamdani won in New York, right?

Rafael Epstein:

I want to go to New York in a moment, but I want to go to Rosebud first because Sally has called from Rosebud. Sally, what do you want to say?

Sally:

Hi. How you going, Raf?

Rafael Epstein:

Good.

Sally:

Yeah. I’m down on the Mornington Peninsula and I work in the public sector. We have a majority of people that are also working homeless that are living on the foreshore intents and that can’t find any rental accommodation.

Rafael Epstein:

What sort of jobs are they doing, do you think? Do you know?

Sally:

So Woolworths, one’s in hospitality. There’s mothers that are in their cars with their children because they’re waiting on-

Rafael Epstein:

Emergency accommodation or something.

Sally:

Yeah. So it’s a real problem down here.

Rafael Epstein:

Look, [inaudible 00:04:29] phone line, Sally, but thank you for calling. It’s really important. I mean, I’m so aware of it.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, it also goes to the issue of immigration, like whether we’re getting ahead of ourselves and how many … But it is-

Rafael Epstein:

It really doesn’t-

Colleen Harkin:

… It’s part of the story.

Emma Dawson:

The statistics do not bear it out, Colleen. We’ve actually had more dwellings than we have net immigration over the last 10 years. When it comes to students, they’re not living in the kinds of houses that even Australians-

Rafael Epstein:

If we have a chance, I’m happy to come back to immigration. Not that I don’t want to go there. I do want to go there, but I do want to go to some of the news of the week. Emma, you wanted to tie the housing stuff to the victory of the self-declared Democrat socialist in the capital of capitalism.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right. In New York City, the absolute centre of capitalism. One of the things he ran on was that very issue, that most of the service workers, the essential workers in New York cannot afford to live in New York. Many of them are living in homeless shelters in New Jersey. They’re commuting a couple of hours a day. These are the people that keep the city running.

He has won largely on that issue. A lot of the cultural issues that are being thrown around, “Oh, he’s a Muslim, oh, he’s against Israel.” It’s really about affordability. That was the reason that young people voted for him in droves. You can’t function as a society if we’re pricing the people that keep the wheels of our economy turning out of living in our economy. In the past, particularly for essential workers and government workers, the government used to provide housing, right? When we created-

Rafael Epstein:

They’re not going to do that.

Emma Dawson:

… The State Electricity Commission in the 1930s, we built an entire town in Ulam that people were provided with good, secure homes in order to be those essential energy workers. There aren’t many silver bullets in this issue, but what’s really obvious to me, and to most people that have looked at this in detail, is that the market is not going to fix this problem. The market will build the most valuable homes, the things they can get the most return for. Even with the government’s current policies, we need more non-market housing, social, community, public housing.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma Dawson, Colleen Harkin are with you, and want to try and get back to some of those points. Might also be worth pointing out that the newly elected Democrat governor of the state of New Jersey, they are not. They don’t have a net-zero plan. The country head by Donald Trump, her number one issue is declaring a state of emergency on utility bills. She is promising to freeze utility bills. So everyone’s grappling with similar issues. But let me go to Kate in Canterbury. We were talking about the, I guess, the fate of the federal coalition. Kate, what do you want to say?

Kate:

Hi, Raf. Look, I’ve been thinking about it and I can see that if the Liberals decide to go with net-zero simply because they need it for the sorts of electors that you were talking about, that I could see the nationals actually splitting from the coalition, leaving the liberals in the wilderness and maybe even forming a coalition with maybe one nation and becoming a much more right-leaning party in opposition to Labour. I mean, it’s only my opinion, but I could just sort of envisage it.

Rafael Epstein:

Katie, is that an opposition forever or down the track somehow, I don’t know, one nation’s national government? I don’t know how that would work. I don’t think that would work.

Kate:

It would terrify me if it ever came to pass. But I don’t know how electors would look at them.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, I can’t imagine them winning seats. I can’t imagine them winning seats in the city, Kate.

Emma Dawson:

Their total combined vote would be no more than 15%.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, the nets get 4% of something, don’t they?

Colleen Harkin:

One nation of 15% themselves at the moment.

Rafael Epstein:

At the moment. Different to an election.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, I think that’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

Different to an election. We’ve also got Gary in Corfield South. What do you want to say, Gary?

Gary:

Sorry, I’ll just get back in my car. It’s noisy here. Yeah, look, mate, I’m totally with Colleen. I think she’s spot on the money.

Rafael Epstein:

On?

Gary:

When it comes down to science and all the rest of it, I’m sorry, but you can swing the science whichever way you like. There are various opinions about the science of net-zero. I believe that the kids who are being brainwashed in their education in schools by the left socialist teachers of the teaching are going to come to the reality, the stark reality that they’ve got going to have families, they’re going to have to live, they’ve got expenses, and they’re going to come down to realising that Australia, with its minority population in the world, is not going to save the world by net-zero.

Rafael Epstein:

Gary, quick question, because I’m guessing you’re more right than left. In favour of Nats and Libs staying together or happy for Nats and Libs to split?

Gary:

Well, I think they need to stay together, number one.

Rafael Epstein:

Me too.

Gary:

The Libs need to make peace with each other. The reason the Libs would get in is not because … At the moment, the only reason they get in is not because they’re doing the right thing. It’s because Labor’s doing the wrong thing. That’s the only reason.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, no, I hear what you’re saying. Thank you for your call. I am going to call it now, only because I want to give you both a chance to share some of your erudite culture shares. Colleen, I’ll start with you. Any piece of literature, bit of television?

Colleen Harkin:

So I have watched on Netflix The House of Guinness.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh.

Emma Dawson:

I haven’t watched it yet.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. Look, it’s a great period piece, right? If you like period pieces, it’s historically entirely inaccurate.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s the history of the Guinness family. People make the beat. But it’s supposed to be.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I’m not sure that they ever actually say that, but it’s certainly led to believe.

Rafael Epstein:

It was described to me as Peaky Blinders, go back 100 years further from Peaky Blinders, throw in the Guinness Beer Company making their own commercial, and you get a drama. Is that-

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I haven’t seen Peaky Blinders, but it is definitely inaccurate about the family.

Emma Dawson:

Is that James Norton? Is James Norton in it?

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t think … He’s a [inaudible 00:10:31]?

Emma Dawson:

I think so. I’ll watch it. I’ll watch it for James Norton.

Colleen Harkin:

But the modern overlay that they put onto it just for fun actually does make it an interesting story.

Rafael Epstein:

So you got to the end of the season?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, I’ve watched it all. It is worth watching. It’s entertaining, but it is not historically accurate.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s okay.

Emma Dawson:

Sounds like fun.

Colleen Harkin:

But the production values are great. The costumes and all that kind of stuff are really good. The script’s quite good. Just remember, it is not at all about the Guinness family.

Rafael Epstein:

Don’t watch the Oliver Stone JFK film if you want to understand that assassination. But that’s still a fun film. Emma?

Emma Dawson:

Down Cemetery Road. It’s on Apple TV. It’s an adaptation of Mick Herron’s first novel. If you know Slow Horses, and if you don’t know Slow Horses, you’re really missing out. Yeah, so same writer, same production company, Emma Thompson and Ruth Wilson in the leads. So I’m three episodes in, it’s so good.

Rafael Epstein:

Is Emma Thompson’s character similar to Gary Altman’s Slow Horses character?

Emma Dawson:

Kind of. Not nearly as dirty at all. Not at all rude. But no, she’s a fairly heterodox private investigator, spiky hair, long black leather coat, Doc Martins.

Colleen Harkin:

She’s reliable.

Emma Dawson:

She is. Almost anything you see her in is … She’s always good. Ruth Wilson’s fantastic in it too. It’s written by and produced by Morwenna Banks, who is Mummy Pig in Pepper Pig.

Rafael Epstein:

Important to know. Okay.

Emma Dawson:

Was also one of the writers on Slow Horses. So if you like Slow Horses, you’ll love this. I think having two female leads in what is a kind of crime caper thing, I’m enjoying it a lot.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. Down Cemetery Road is Apple, what’s it called? The Guinness one?

Colleen Harkin:

House of Guinness. Netflix.

Rafael Epstein:

House of Guinness. It’s on Netflix. Colleen Harkin with the IPA, Emma Dawson’s with the Chifley Research Centre. Thank you to both of you.

Colleen Harkin:

Thank you.

Emma Dawson:

Thank you.

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on ABC Melbourne Mornings from 7 November 2025 has been edited for clarity.