Colleen Harkin On The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 9 May 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne and discussed the IPA’s research on Australia’s democracy.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s coming up to 10 minutes past 10:00. Let me formally introduce Emma Dawson, Executive Director of the Chifley Research Centre. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And Colleen Harkin, who’s the Director of the schools programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

Maybe we should look at the election this way and I do want to know if people think Melbourne’s better off without the Greens because they’ve had a foothold here for some time. They’ll have the swing vote in the Senate unless Labour gets the Coalition to agree with them. I’ll start with you Colleen. Did the government win this election or did the Opposition lose it?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, it was clear to me that the Coalition didn’t offer anything different to the Labour Party. They were the same offerings and that was their mistake. I mean, on the big ticket items like net-zero, immigration, defence, both parties were going to borrow $150 billion over the next four years. So from a voting point of view, there was no clear reason to vote for the Coalition. So in that respect, I would say Labour didn’t win it, the Coalition lost it, and that’s their never-ending scenario. Where was the policy work that should have been done in the first year in Opposition? It became clear there wasn’t a clear direction and there wasn’t a clear agreement from the party room about doing the internal tussles about what policy should.

Rafael Epstein:

So it’s not about that? [inaudible 00:01:17] policy is bad policy.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I’m not sure that the policy actually existed. Where was the difference between the Coalition and labour in those big ticket items that really do make a difference? I still sit here and lament what were the things I was voting on? 25 cents [inaudible 00:01:34].

Rafael Epstein:

Can I ask you, because I don’t know how much you had your foot in the Liberal Party, as it were? You look disappointed. Do you feel disappointed by what they produced and tried to sell?

Colleen Harkin:

On Monday, I felt quite down and out and quite flat. Yeah, of course, of course. From a voter point of view and from the things that I think the Liberal Party stands for, I didn’t see them doing a very good job of that and I don’t really know why. I mean there’s a great story to be told and there was a great opportunity. It was always going to be a difficult task to unseat a first-term government, but not impossible, but I just didn’t see them doing it properly. And I know Emma’s going to be insufferable over this because she very strongly predicted a very strong win. I don’t think anyone thought that the margin would be as big as it’s turned out, but yeah, I think most Liberal voters are sitting here shaking our heads going, where was the fight? Where was the points of difference?

Rafael Epstein:

Emma, did the government win or did the Opposition lose?

Emma Dawson:

Oh, the government won, absolutely. It was a fantastic campaign. And I mean, there’s always an element of if one side wins, the other side loses, although sides are a lot less distinct than they used to be. But no, I think Labour ran a very good, very focused campaign and pleasingly it was focused on the future and on what they could offer people. So that line that worked against progressive incumbent governments, centre-left governments around the world last year, are you better off now than you were three years ago, didn’t work here for Peter Dutton, and I think for two reasons.

Firstly, as Colleen said, he didn’t have anything to offer that people could tie to being better off or could see would make them better off in not just the immediate but in the future. And because the Labour Party ran a very forward-looking campaign, we are going to do these things to make your life better, we have turned the corner, and I think people wanted to hear that message of positivity and of hope. So yeah, I think they won and I think they won convincingly and I think it’s a very good thing.

Rafael Epstein:

I do want to address the tenor of the campaign. It’s very hard to adjudicate this stuff because someone says, “Oh, your volunteers were terrible,” and they say, “No, no, your volunteers were terrible.” And I have no idea when someone calls up, how do you verify any of this stuff? But the Labour MP joined us, Peter Khalil. I think this is the sort of thing he was saying privately, maybe felt less able to say publicly, but he really let loose and he was really pointing the finger at not naming people, but at Greens volunteers. Here is what he talks about, the stark violence and intimidation that was directed at Labour people and him, people on his team.

Peter Khalil:

Myself as a person standing there and being screamed at by volunteers constantly for eight hours a day, people physically blocking me from talking to constituents, I don’t think that attempt to disrupt that democratic process in that way and intimidate people involved in the political process through that kind of harassment, it should never be normalised.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, I’ll just go to you first. I don’t know how much you went to booths. I went to a few but it all seemed very nice to me. Was it a nastier campaign?

Colleen Harkin:

No. I was on booths but I was in a fairly civilised area, but I have definitely been on polling booths before. I don’t know if I should name the minor party that does it, but have been literally elbowed out of the way, physically elbowed out of the way.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s important. Don’t tell me where it was. I guess my question would be, was this election any worse than previous ones?

Colleen Harkin:

Yes.

Rafael Epstein:

Was it different? Emma, you’re saying yes. Why.

Emma Dawson:

Yes. Well, certainly, in Peter’s seat in Wills and in McNamara where I vote that tension and some of the behaviour of those Green left volunteers has been quite aggressive and quite intimidating. And not just during the campaign, before the campaign. Calling people complicit in genocide because of the way they vote in our country is deeply offensive to a lot of people.

Rafael Epstein:

Can I? I just want to-

Emma Dawson:

But like Colleen said…

Rafael Epstein:

Is it worse than last time?

Emma Dawson:

Yes, and it’s been getting steadily worse to me. So the handing out booths, I don’t do as much of that as I did as a young person because weekends, I’ve got kids. But it used to be quite a civilised thing and you would talk with other volunteers. But you’ve got a lot more in common with people that are going to get up and volunteer on a polling booth if you’re into politics than you do with an apathetic voter, whether you’re on different sides. You’re all interested in making the country better in your own way. But in recent years I have found that the hostility from some, certainly not all, but some younger Greens supporters and activists, the activist base has been really hostile.

And Adam Bandt used this word yesterday in his concession speech. He said, “Melbourneians hate Peter Dutton.” The hate, the language of we hate you because you vote Labour or we hate you because you vote Liberal has become too pervasive amongst some in that activist left and it’s damaging to democracy. I’ve been on the end of it myself, particularly online back in the day when I was a lot more online than I am now, that aggression and that body blocking people.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ve got to day, there have been equal opportunity reports of bad behaviour from people on the right and the left.

Emma Dawson:

Absolutely.

Colleen Harkin:

There’s a tactic that comes from the left, is to actually play the man not the ball and they [inaudible 00:07:04].

Rafael Epstein:

You’re talking there about politics and not the behaviour on the booth.

Emma Dawson:

Let’s be clear.

Colleen Harkin:

But it permeates down. That’s how the representation continues through the culture of the people and how people expect the conversations to be had.

Emma Dawson:

Let me clarify this. There have been neo-Nazis on some booths.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, that’s definitely worse.

Emma Dawson:

And far-right intimidation as well.

Rafael Epstein:

I guess I was isolating that. I’m just trying to examine everyone else, if it’s worse.

Colleen Harkin:

I don’t think the political discourse is healthy. It is very much about ridiculing people, individual people, and that divisive scenario about it.

Rafael Epstein:

But there is a nasty deliciousness too, isn’t there, that comes from the Liberal Party against the Greens? I think the only thing Peter Dutton said on social media was about Adam Bandt.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

And Peter Dutton used the word hate media. I mean, he’s always been very civil with me. He did use the word hate media to describe the ABC.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, I don’t think that’s on.

Rafael Epstein:

Do the mainstream parties bear any blame, Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

I mean, I think everybody does, but I think the culture of discussing politics has changed quite dramatically. To your point, Emma, exactly the same scenario. For many years, I’ve spent time on boots where regardless of what party you’re in, you chat.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s been pretty nice.

Colleen Harkin:

You chat about life, different things, ambitions, share snacks.

Emma Dawson:

I guess to me it’s just particularly disappointing to see it emerge on the left because to me being a person of the left…

Rafael Epstein:

Like I used to say was happening on the right.

Emma Dawson:

And it still is.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, okay.

Emma Dawson:

But to see it emerge on the left in that extreme.

Colleen Harkin:

Are you saying Labour have never done it [inaudible 00:08:37]?

Emma Dawson:

No, no, no. [inaudible 00:08:37].

Rafael Epstein:

I’m going to press pause. I’m going to bring in some other people to the conversation. Emma Dawson and Colleen Harkin helping me wrap up the week. Eric is calling from Rye. What did you want to mention Eric?

Eric:

[inaudible 00:08:50]. I was 10 hours on a booth up in Goldstone, and one thing that people don’t realise, when you vote for one of the majors, you’re voting for somebody who is going to be told what he’s going to think, what he’s going to do, when he does it and when he doesn’t. Zoe Daniel was an excellent local member of Parliament. She did what the local population asked her to do, not what some faceless person up in Canberra says.

Rafael Epstein:

So can I ask you a question then Eric.

Eric:

Ask your question. [inaudible 00:09:24].

Rafael Epstein:

Why do you think she lost? I know it was narrow, Eric. Why do you think she lost?

Eric:

The people of Goldstone have lost out badly.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay, you’re allowed to say that Eric, I was curious in your thoughts. Keep in mind, too, Tim Wilson’s claimed victory. Zoe Daniel has not conceded yet. There’s still some counting going on. Well, there’s still formal counting going on in most seats. I think there’s about eight to 10 seats that haven’t been sorted yet in terms of people declaring.

Emma Dawson:

There’s the other thing there [inaudible 00:09:51]. When we say someone has won marginally out, our preferential system obscures the actual first preference of the people. Tim Wilson’s won by give or take 10,000 votes.

Rafael Epstein:

You mean first preference votes?

Emma Dawson:

First preference votes. So when we say that the very slim margin in Goldstone, that’s true on a two PP, on the two-party preferred. But at a grass-roots basic level…

Rafael Epstein:

That’s the glory of the two PP.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, correct. But he has won by 10,000 votes. That’s not insignificant.

Rafael Epstein:

Well he won 10,000 extra primary votes.

Colleen Harkin:

Primary votes, yes.

Rafael Epstein:

There’s a difference, isn’t there?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

I mean I do say…

Colleen Harkin:

A lot of [inaudible 00:10:22].

Rafael Epstein:

… Colleen’s never going to get in, but she’s my number one. I know Emma’s going to get in, so she’s my number two. I just don’t like to [inaudible 00:10:28].

Emma Dawson:

I don’t think people understand preferential voting system, by the way, I don’t know that [inaudible 00:10:31].

Colleen Harkin:

I do. I think this election-

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, I think people understand it 100%.

Colleen Harkin:

I think this election shows that they do, actually.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah. I think they do.

Colleen Harkin:

[inaudible 00:10:38].

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. Conversation for a different day. Annie’s in St. Kilda. What did you want to say, Annie?

Annie:

Yes, I was working for the AEC on a polling booth and, of course, we’re not allowed to show or reveal any preferences. A lot of the time I was in queue control and a lot of the time some of the volunteers handing out pamphlets on the queue to the queue people, which went round the block, were very, very aggressive. At one stage. I don’t think I’m meant to say it, but I said to one candidate, “Keep it civil please.” I sounded like a schoolteacher.

But then there was another party, and we couldn’t even work out which party they were from, but they just kept saying, “Put Greens last.” And I’m not a Greens supporter, per se, exactly, but that was just so negative, so nasty, so loud. And they were the ones putting their big A frames all in everyone’s way. I kept tripping over them.

Rafael Epstein:

Annie, it doesn’t sound like it was great. I want to get back in a moment too, to what comes next? Massive Labour majority and a wounded Opposition. What does it mean? What are we actually going to get as a country? And I want to know what you think and what you made of it all. Give us a ring.

Emma Dawson and Colleen Harkin are with us. Emma, I’m going to start with you. It’s a huge majority for Anthony Albanese. He was incredibly confident about getting a majority. I don’t think he was confident about getting one this big.

Emma Dawson:

No, no one was.

Rafael Epstein:

Are they going to do things that people don’t expect? Do you think Anthony Albanese is going to pull out a, I don’t know, housing tax thing? Is anything going to be different with a bigger majority?

Emma Dawson:

I think it might be. I think it should.

Rafael Epstein:

You think it might be?

Emma Dawson:

I think it should be.

Rafael Epstein:

No, but I want you to separate what you might hope for from what you think he will do.

Emma Dawson:

Look, first thing to say is don’t assume I’ve got any inside information, because I haven’t, but your listeners may have noticed when you introduced me, I had a different title and that’s because I started on Monday as Exec Director of the Chifley Research Centre, which is the ALP’s think tank.

Rafael Epstein:

Think tank.

Emma Dawson:

I, obviously, accepted the role before I knew the outcome of the election, but I wouldn’t have taken that role, because I’m a policy wonk, we all know that, if I didn’t think there was serious policy work to be done within the ALP.

Rafael Epstein:

Do you think they’ll do it?

Emma Dawson:

Do I think they’ll do it? Yes. I think there’s an appetite to do it. To do what, is the question, and I’m not prescribing. You referenced their housing tax, for example. My view is and always has been that those tax concessions need to be looked at, but they need to be looked at within the context of a broader review of the tax system.

Rafael Epstein:

Bigger stuff, broader.

Emma Dawson:

All commentators, whether they’re in the financial review, the Australian, the nine papers, the ABC, all know and all agree that we’ve got a structural problem in the budget in terms of funding the things we want and the things we need. And I think as I said before the election, whomever comes in is going to have to deal with that. I do think there’s an awareness in the Labour Party, the Treasurer said on election night, this term’s going to be about productivity. What that means is about finding the revenue growth to support the kind of country we want to be.

So I think that with a majority like this, there is an opportunity for the government to say, “Okay, we’re going to do some serious work here. Not we’re going in with a preconceived idea and we’re going to drop things on you that you weren’t expecting, but we are going to lead a conversation.

Rafael Epstein:

You’d like to process the PM, so you reckon he’ll kick that off?

Emma Dawson:

I think it’s a process driven Prime Minister we’ve got. Yeah, I think it is time for us to say, “If you’ve got a majority like this, let’s use it. Let’s use it to change.” Not change the country drastically, but a lot of our infrastructure, social, physical, economic, is out of date and it needs to be updated. And I do think with a commanding majority, with hopefully cooperation across the aisle, then there is the opportunity to do the kind of process driven reforms that were done in the ’80s and ’90s in this country.

Rafael Epstein:

The things that John Howard backed, and I know people still feel that maybe John Howard should have backed some of that stuff. Again, I’ll going to ask you a different question, Colleen. I’m going to ask you a more immediate capital P political question. Has Jacinta Price just blown up the Coalition by [inaudible 00:15:02]?

Colleen Harkin:

No, definitely not.

Rafael Epstein:

What do you see going on inside the Liberal Party?

Colleen Harkin:

She has not defected. It is a Coalition. So the reporting in the media is actually misleading.

Rafael Epstein:

She’s not making peace. Instead, it looks like she’s making people angry inside the Coalition.

Colleen Harkin:

No. She’s allowed to sit in whichever party room she chooses. This is a Canberra bubble internal politics, blip type thing. She’s a talented MP. We saw that during the voice of her ability to cut through a message and talk to people. She’s relatively young in terms of she’s only had one term, but if she’s given the right portfolio, I think she will make a difference. But the idea that she’s defected, it’s just nonsense. She’s part of the Coalition. She allowed to sit wherever she wants to.

Rafael Epstein:

There’s a lot of nationals on the radio this morning saying they’re angry. I just wonder if you think it’ll leave scars or not.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, she’s a good operator. Her capacity to sell a message to speak clearly to people is really strong and so anybody would want her on their team.

Rafael Epstein:

And she’s not taking the party too far away from the centre? That’ll be the allegation, right? That’ll be the claim.

Colleen Harkin:

Can somebody tell me one right wing policy that the Liberal Party have come out with? I can’t name one that you would identify as being a right wing policy.

Emma Dawson:

Refusing to stand in front of the Indigenous flag.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s not right wing to say that you will stand in front of the Australian flag. And most Australians agree with me.

Emma Dawson:

It’s fairly hard.

Colleen Harkin:

And the voice component says that just recently they’re Welcome to Country 159,000-

Rafael Epstein:

I’ll just let Colleen finish and I’ll get Emma in response.

Colleen Harkin:

159,000 people said they don’t want this Welcome to Country going on.

Rafael Epstein:

Sorry, where’s that number from?

Colleen Harkin:

There was a survey that we’ve done.

Rafael Epstein:

A survey.

Colleen Harkin:

These are mainstream issues. These are not right wing extremist issues. This is an ordinary popular [inaudible 00:16:55]

Rafael Epstein:

A quick response, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

159,000 people in a survey is not a representative poll. So let’s be clear about that.

Colleen Harkin:

I think [inaudible 00:17:04].

Rafael Epstein:

Away from the survey, the broader point.

Colleen Harkin:

Okay, you want a broader economic right wing policy? Sacking 41,000 public servants, reducing the size of government. That’s a right wing policy. I think there were a lot. I think there is a distinct difference. I think that, yes. What this election has shown more than anything is that the Australian people don’t want extremist politics. They don’t want a politics of division, whether it’s on the right or on the left, that we coalesce in the centre. There’s a lot of people on the right and the left that are grumpy about that and are saying, Well, this is a do nothing government.” I don’t that that’s true.

Emma Dawson:

The Liberal Party is always [inaudible 00:17:40].

Rafael Epstein:

I’m going to press pause there only because I want to bring in some more people on the phone. I appreciate that you guys could keep going on that. But Aaron’s in Hawthorne East. I just wanted to bring you in, Aaron. What do you want to say?

Aaron:

I’ve got autism on the spectrum and I’m on the DSP and I was wondering what’s happening with the aged care sector. I’m pretty happy with the result of the election. What’s happening with the aged care sector with the government? And secondly, what is the count for the [inaudible 00:18:14] finalised?

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah. No, it’s not finalised. Monique Ryan’s ahead by 724, which is anytime they get under 1,000, it can be anybody’s, really. But I don’t know how many counts there are to go, Aaron. But Monique Ryan ahead of Amelia Hayman by 724. I’m assuming that’s the two-party preferred vote. Maureen is going to get the final political word. I’m going to ask Emma and Colleen to tell me the things they’re looking forward to as opposed to looking backwards. But Maureen, what do you want to say?

Maureen:

Hello?

Rafael Epstein:

Hi. Go for it. Everyone’s listening.

Maureen:

Hello. Firstly, before, I didn’t ring for this, but regarding Jacinta Price, I’m sorry that she was elected under the national banner and if I was voting for her and knowing this week she’s with the Liberals, that’s a different matter. I think that’s wrong that she’s done that. But the reason I rung is it’s just, with Emma, I congratulate Albanese. I’m very proud that he’s still our Prime Minister for the next three years. The negative campaign that was against him through the media, I think is absolutely disgusting.

Rafael Epstein:

All media?

Maureen:

Not all media, but most media. I mean, the got you moment, it was so bad. Their campaign, the Liberals, Coalition, what you want to call them, was so bad that they were looking for any little green shoots that they could where they got got you moment for falling off the stage.

Rafael Epstein:

You clearly aren’t impressed with the media. Maureen, thank you. I need to move on because I want to hear from Jonathan Van Ness from Queer Eye and also Changing Track. But quickly, Emma, TV show, book, YouTube clip.

Emma Dawson:

Book, Jenny Macklin’s [inaudible 00:20:00]. Jenny Macklin’s just published a new book called Making Progress: How Good Policy Happens, and it’s far from your usual political memoir, being from Jenny Macklin, who was far from your usual politician.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay.

Emma Dawson:

It’s very focused on how big ideas get up. She gives so much time and credit to the people that she worked with in the department, in stakeholder groups. It’s a wonkish read, but it’s a really good read if you want to understand how big reforms get made and just how challenging it can be to get things that stick.

Rafael Epstein:

Macklin’s memoir. And Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

And I’ve started watching a thing called Turning Point on the Vietnam War.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes.

Colleen Harkin:

I’m a couple of episodes in, but it’s fascinating to see what politicians say to the public, what they’re doing behind closed doors, and what they’re actually planning to do. It’s fascinating.

Rafael Epstein:

Netflix. Turning Point.

Colleen Harkin:

It is, yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ve seen that. I haven’t got into it. There’s a lot of good Vietnam [inaudible 00:20:52].

Colleen Harkin:

Also, Poker Face is back on [inaudible 00:20:54] with Natasha Lyonne.

Rafael Epstein:

Natasha Lyonne.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s so good. So much fun.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma Dawson’s with the Chifley Research Centre, Colleen Harkin’s with the IPA. Thank you to both of you. Really appreciate it.

Colleen Harkin:

And thank you.

Emma Dawson:

Thanks.

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne 9 May 2025 has been edited for clarity.