Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 17 July 2026

Rafael Epstein:

Emma Dawson is with us. She’s the Executive Director of the Chifley Research Centre. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And Colleen Harkin is with us as well, Director of Education at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning to you both.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

Telcos, we all… Well, not all, a lot of Australians suffered a outage last week. Do we find them enough, Emma, and do we need to make directors more personally responsible for outages?

Emma Dawson:

Re-nationalise it.

Rafael Epstein:

Re-nationalise it.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, sorry. I think this is one of the things that happens when you privatise essential services. Who’s accountable? And I think people still expect their telephone service to be completely robust and they get very angry when it’s not because their expectation of it is that it’s a government delivered essential service. So who’s accountable now? I mean, this is a problem in so many essential services. I worked for Telstra, so they’ll probably go, “Why is a former employee saying we should be renationalized?” Look, I’m being a bit flippant, but I think that the point I’m trying to make is when it’s a government delivered essential service that is people’s lives depend on them…

Rafael Epstein:

And business.

Emma Dawson:

… and business and our economy, then people know who’s accountable and we vote for those people and we hold them accountable through those processes. In the corporate world, if you privatise a company and you expect corporate directors to be responsible for life-saving and economy supporting infrastructure, I don’t think there’s any regulation in the world that can be effective on that. What are you going to do, send them to jail? Then who’s going to turn up and say, “I’ll be a director at Telstra.” So it is a downstream problem of the privatisation of essentials.

Privatization’s good in some cases, but when it comes to essential services, I think we’re seeing increasingly problems, whether it’s child abuse in the early childhood education and care system, the failure of triple zero.

Rafael Epstein:

You can’t have government ownership of everything though.

Emma Dawson:

No, but essential services at least should be nonprofit and directly regulated by government.

Rafael Epstein:

Nonprofit, maybe we’ll get stuck…

Emma Dawson:

At least.

Rafael Epstein:

… into that. 1300-222-774, because that’s different to government ownership. Colleen, what do you think?

Colleen Harkin:

I think we can’t survive without it. I mean, this stuff keeps happening, which is the problem, is that there doesn’t seem to be any consequences for it. I typically would disagree with you.

Rafael Epstein:

Not for nationalising telcos, no?

Colleen Harkin:

No.

Rafael Epstein:

No.

Colleen Harkin:

And I’ve never seen a bureaucrat who’s actually been personally responsible for anything. So I totally disagree with the premise of making it government ownership would have any benefit cause to outages.

Rafael Epstein:

I guess over ROVR debt’s an example of that problem, right, that public servants would be held accountable.

Colleen Harkin:

Public servants are never known people, we don’t vote for them, all of that kind of stuff. But I do think that in industry where, so for example, manufacturing, directors are personally held responsible for things, admittedly that it is when it is personal harm like death or injuries or those sorts of things, and it’s difficult to align that Telstra outage with an actual physical bodily harm. But it has huge consequences and we ought to be able to rely on it. We don’t seem to have closed that circle very well because it has happened multiple times.

Rafael Epstein:

So let me ask you both a question, and I’d love to know what people think. Lots to talk about today. 1300-222-774. I’ll start with you, Colleen. Do you think the current parliament would be able to pass a law to make directors of telcos more responsible than they are now? Is that a pipe dream or do you think that is potentially possible?

Colleen Harkin:

They clearly have the numbers right?

Rafael Epstein:

I guess I’m asking if you think this parliament would do that.

Colleen Harkin:

No, I don’t think they will. No, I don’t think they will. And I do agree with Emma in terms of, how would you make them responsible and what would the consequence be? I mean, we have to be careful that we don’t make things so difficult to be responsible for that nobody wants to do the job. So I agree with you there. I don’t think there’s an appetite, to be honest…

Rafael Epstein:

In parliament.

Colleen Harkin:

… to actually see these things through, yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, I don’t think there is that side of the greens either, but I don’t know. Emma, what do you think? Just about crystal ball gazing, do you think it’s possible that it would happen?

Emma Dawson:

I think it is possible if the model was right. And again, this goes to everything I care about, which is how, how do you do it? And it’s a little bit like people complain about the behaviour of the media. Well, how do you regulate the media sufficiently without compromising their independence? It’s a very, very tricky thing to do. If there was a model that could be developed, and I’m happy to turn my attention to it if anyone would like me to, then I think there would be the will in the parliament with its current numbers.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes.

Emma Dawson:

I think there is deep frustration amongst the government that this has happened not just with Optus now, but with Telstra, which is meant to be the gold standard network. And to find out that they could have replaced a part for a few thousand dollars and avoiding this happening is pretty galling. So if there was a model. But again, this is not a problem unique to Australia. You look at the U.K., in particular parts of Europe, America’s very different in its market delivery of services, but these problems are manifest. You look at the water system in the U.K., no one’s been responsible for what’s happened over there.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes.

Emma Dawson:

So yes, I think the will is there. I think it’s a fiendishly difficult knot to untangle because it was not done properly at the time that Telstra was privatised.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s coming up to 12 minutes past 10:00. Emma Dawson and Colleen Harkin are with you. The number’s 1300-222-774. Actually, Colleen, I’m going to ask you this. I don’t know. I’m going to ask you a One Nation question. Say as much or as little as you wish. Are you going to join?

Colleen Harkin:

And I have joined.

Emma Dawson:

She has joined.

Colleen Harkin:

No, I have joined.

Rafael Epstein:

Pauline Hanson on holiday in Sicily with one of the world’s richest people in Gina Rinehart, totally fine or bad look?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I think it’s fine. She’s on holidays. I think there’s, obviously, an interest in it. I don’t know either of them, so I’m speaking as a punter, but I think there’s possibly the fact that they’re two single women of a similar age who possibly have just struck up a genuine friendship.

Rafael Epstein:

Would you say the same if the PM was hanging out in Sicily with rich people?

Colleen Harkin:

He probably does.

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t know. Can you speak up for the little guy if you’re on that holiday? That’s the criticism.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, of course, you can. I mean, the assumption is that because you are doing something that is elite or exclusive, that it means you have no radar for anybody else. I mean, that’s ridiculous.

Emma Dawson:

No, I think the problem is it makes her look like a grifter.

Rafael Epstein:

Why?

Colleen Harkin:

What makes you think that she’s not paying for it herself?

Emma Dawson:

Oh, come on, Colleen. Nobody seriously thinks Pauline…

Colleen Harkin:

You’re making assumptions.

Emma Dawson:

So if she is paying for it herself, where’s that money coming from? And she’s on the taxpayer purse.

Colleen Harkin:

She’s on holidays and she earns a salary.

Hang on. Hang on. Wait. Wait. Wait.

Rafael Epstein:

One at a time. One at a time. Colleen first.

Colleen Harkin:

Are you telling me that politicians are never allowed to have holidays?

Emma Dawson:

No. No, I’m not. And I personally don’t like that. “Oh, he’s done this and that and let’s pick on them for their holidays.” But I do think there’s a double standard here. Firstly, the Prime Minister hasn’t got time to go on holiday in Sicily, right? Apparently, he hasn’t had a day off all year. And it is different when you’re not running the country because I guess you get to take more holidays. Pauline takes quite a lot of time away from parliament.

Colleen Harkin:

This is their winter break.

Emma Dawson:

And I think the fact that she’s White Lotus-ing it in Sicily with Gina Rinehart is not the image…

Colleen Harkin:

This is the politician’s winter break.

Emma Dawson:

Sure.

Rafael Epstein:

One at a time. One at a time.

Colleen Harkin:

There’ll be loads of politicians who are overseas at the moment because this is their winter break.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah. Sure. Sure.

Colleen Harkin:

So why is one person allowed to take an overseas holiday and someone else isn’t?

Emma Dawson:

The problem is that she is holidaying with one of the world’s richest women who is on the record saying there should be no minimum wages.

Colleen Harkin:

So what?

Rafael Epstein:

One at a time.

Emma Dawson:

That we should set up a special economic zone in the areas where she has mining interests so people can work-

Colleen Harkin:

Would you have a problem with someone…

Emma Dawson:

So people can work for $2 a day.

Colleen Harkin:

… holidaying in the same place as Simon Holmes à Court?

Emma Dawson:

Would I have a problem-

Colleen Harkin:

With Simon Holmes à Court?

Emma Dawson:

Simon Holmes à Court is nowhere near as wealthy as Gina Rinehart.

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, so it’s a quantum of dollars then?

Emma Dawson:

Well, no, I don’t really care who people holiday with.

Colleen Harkin:

There you go.

Emma Dawson:

What I care about is the hypocrisy, Colleen…

Rafael Epstein:

Just let Emma finish and I’ll give you ago.

Emma Dawson:

… that she holds herself out as being there for the common man and the battler and the worker. And nothing in her policy suite would help those people. And she is openly thumbing her nose at people that can’t pay the rent or pay for their grocery bills while she’s living the White Lotus life in Sicily with the richest woman in the world.

Colleen Harkin:

So you just said you don’t care about the dollars. It’s the quantum?

Emma Dawson:

It’s the hypocrisy. It’s the hypocrisy of saying, “I am here for the common person. I am on the battlers’ side.”

Rafael Epstein:

Okay.

Emma Dawson:

How many battlers do you reckon have been to a resort in Sicily recently?

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

But that’s not the point. The point is that someone is entitled to have a holiday and that whether they’ve got money or not themselves is not the issue.

Emma Dawson:

Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

And whether you have a gazillion dollars, it does not mean you are not capable of seeing the life that other people live.

Emma Dawson:

How did you react when the Prime minister bought a house?

Colleen Harkin:

I had no problem with it.

Emma Dawson:

People were, “Oh, it’s a $4.0 million house.”

Colleen Harkin:

No.

Emma Dawson:

But a lot of people did.

Colleen Harkin:

I have no problem with it. He earns money. He’s entitled to spend it how he wants.

Rafael Epstein:

Last 10 seconds from each of you. Colleen, anything else you feel you need to get off your chest?

Colleen Harkin:

She’s entitled to holidays. Everybody else is.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma?

Emma Dawson:

She’s entitled to her holidays, but she’s got no judgement about her message for the Australian people.

Rafael Epstein:

16 minutes past 10:00. Emma Dawson and Colleen Harkin. I don’t know what you feel about that. 1300-222-774 is the number. Just back on the Telstra stuff. Steven Blackburn is on a uni ticket with Emma. Nationalised. Beautiful. Music to my ears. So whatever you make of that, 1300-222-774. Les in Yarraville on the holiday in Sicily. What’d you want to mention, Les?

Les:

Good morning, all. Just on the basis of one of your guests defending Gina Rinehart, I understand Gina Rinehart is one of the biggest contributors and financial donors to the IPA. So perhaps your guest would like to declare that before she starts defending Rinehart.

Rafael Epstein:

Quick response, Colleen. Do you know?

Colleen Harkin:

No, I don’t know. And we are an independent subscriber-based organisation.

Rafael Epstein:

Do you list donors?

Colleen Harkin:

No, not as far as I know. I honestly can’t tell you who our donors are. I do my job and it’s not my remit.

Rafael Epstein:

Tobacco companies have given to the IPA, haven’t they?

Colleen Harkin:

Not as far as I know. Maybe in history. I don’t know.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay.

Colleen Harkin:

Maybe 30, 40 years ago. I don’t know.

Rafael Epstein:

I don’t want to go too far down that path because I want to leave some time. There is a Guardian report, Gina Rinehart donating to the IPA in 2016 and ’17 4.5 million over those two years. But that’s, where are we, close to 10 years ago. 1300-222-774 is the number. General vibe question to both of you. I’ll start with you, Emma. AI and data centres, should I be worried? Should I be scared? Or should I be excited?

Emma Dawson:

Both.

Rafael Epstein:

Ah. Do we need tougher rules?

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, look, I think we do. I think that the community concern about the environmental impact, the impact on local communities is real. Some of it is overblown. I think most data centres in Australia are already bending over backwards to show what good responsible citizens they’re going to be. But it’s the only real source of business investment in the country at the moment.

Rafael Epstein:

It’s the only growth.

Emma Dawson:

It’s making our headline numbers look better than they otherwise would. So yes, we need guardrails. There are two issues here. There’s the impact of AI tools on us as human beings, and then there’s the cost both environmentally and financially of the data centres that are required to run them. I think a lot of people misunderstand that if you don’t have a data centre, you’ve still got to have your compute power somewhere. So actually, if we want these products, then we need the infrastructure to deliver them. And it is important that Australia gets this right upfront.

So I think the Prime Minister’s speech the other day, like all good policy approaches, starts with a set of principles and then we work out the detail. And I think there is an expectation that those regulations aren’t just a kind of self-regulated nice to have, that we ensure that we shape this market at the outset rather than play catch up down the track.

Rafael Epstein:

Just before I come to Colleen, just three numbers that are floating around in my head. Number one, Andrew Charlton told us yesterday the average Australian interacts with a data centre 5,000 times each day.

Emma Dawson:

Wow.

Rafael Epstein:

So whatever you’re doing on your devices…

Emma Dawson:

Every time you pick up your phone.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, whatever you’re doing on your devices, there’s 5,000 interactions. Secondly, I think it’s the last two quarters Andrew Charlton has also said the only numbers giving us growth in our GDP figures are investment in data centres. And the other thing that I’m still blown away by, because I only learned this last week, the second-biggest destination for data centre dollars is Australia.

So outside of America, there’s more investment in data centres here than anywhere else that we know of. I don’t think we know what China’s doing.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, just back to first principles, are you scared or excited about AI and data centres?

Colleen Harkin:

I don’t think we can live without them anymore. I think that’s the issue. I mean, people don’t seem to want them. There’s this sort of juxtaposition between, I don’t see how we can live the lifestyles that we do and not have them even though people don’t want them. So I don’t know how we ever resolve that scenario. I know people in the West suburbs, for example, are very concerned about fire hazard type things and if that were to ever happen. As far as regulation goes, I don’t even know how you can regulate something that is moving so fast because how it works now is not how it’s going to be even in a couple of months.

Rafael Epstein:

So if I can divide that in two, though. One thing I don’t think is going to happen, I might be wrong, no one’s going to get a right to say no. State governments are just going to say yes. So you can regulate building standards. Should data centres be treated differently? Should people be able to say no?

Colleen Harkin:

You mean the people in the suburbs where they’re affected?

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

I don’t know. It’s really hard because we don’t actually even know what would happen if there was a fire. There’s nothing like it that actually exists. And even electric cars and things when they catch fire, the fire brigade are very concerned.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s a different issue, yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. From a safety point of view…

Rafael Epstein:

I will say, the data centre people say they’ve got lots of plans and I saw lots of gear. There’s lots of contingency planning. They’ve planned lots of different things in case there is a fire.

Colleen Harkin:

But I just don’t see how we can not have them. I guess that’s the problem, is that I understand the concerns, but 5,000 interactions a day, that’s extraordinary. Hadn’t heard that statement before.

Rafael Epstein:

No. That’s amazing.

Colleen Harkin:

The high level principle though is, do communities get a say around construction in their neighbourhood?

Rafael Epstein:

Yes.

Colleen Harkin:

Yes, you don’t throw that principle out because it’s a shiny new product.

Rafael Epstein:

But we have. With a lot of things we have.

Emma Dawson:

This is one of the things we have to look at. And I appreciate what you’re saying, Colleen, it’s a fast moving area. I was an advisor in the Communications Minister’s Office when social media was rolling out. So my argument is, yes, it’s hard. That means it’s even more necessary. And it’s not an easy fix, but a lot of things aren’t. I think people are sick of hearing governments say, “Well, what can we do about that?” We elect you to ensure that whatever investments are being made, whatever new technologies are coming on board, that certain principles are not thrown out because of the attraction of that dollar.

Colleen Harkin:

There’s a limitation to where they can be located…

Emma Dawson:

Because they’re huge.

Colleen Harkin:

… because of their need for water and the size of them.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, there are not that many limits.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I mean, you couldn’t put it out in the middle of nowhere.

Rafael Epstein:

No, no.

Colleen Harkin:

Which is where I think a lot of people would be happy for them to be.

Emma Dawson:

Well, no. So, for example, the ones that are going to be used for AI training, you could put them in the middle of nowhere.

Rafael Epstein:

They can be further out. But the ones we interact with all the time needs to be closed out.

Colleen Harkin:

Need to be closer.

Emma Dawson:

Shout out to my friend, Belinda Dennett, who has educated me about these things and works at Data Centres Australia.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay.

Emma Dawson:

I’m not as knowledgeable as I sound.

Rafael Epstein:

And Belinda’s the person who I did the tour with at the data centre and we’ve had her a few times on the show. So look, we’ve talked about regulation of telcos, regulation of AI. We’ve talked about Pauline Hanson’s holiday as well. 1300-222-774. Just some of the texts coming in by the way about, it’s the Financial Review, I think, that broke the story of the pictures of Pauline Hanson and Gina Rinehart on holiday. So we should give them their due. But just two texts on either side of it.

“Wow, why is the argument about whether they should have an expensive holiday? No, politicians should not be holidaying with rich lobbyists.” And someone else texted this, “Mainstream media continue to criticise Hansen. Just plays into hands of her supporters. They will double down on their support. That is exactly what got Trump in.” Give me a call. 1300-222-774.”

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen Harkin is with us from the IPA. Emma Dawson is with us from the Chifley Research Centre. Two Royal Commission questions, two very different Royal Commissions. Let’s talk about the one we do have before we talk about the one we don’t have. The very brief, I don’t want to reduce complex things to something very simple, but all of the university chiefs appearing before the Royal Commission into antisemitism, did we learn much? They haven’t really said they would’ve done things significantly differently. I think Mark Scott said he apologised for bits and pieces. My sort of helicopter view reading is the universities aren’t really going to change their views on how they dealt with these things. Do you think it’s been worthwhile, Colleen, to have those uni chiefs at a Royal Commission?

Colleen Harkin:

Probably not really because I think that what… Well, I mean, if I’ve learned something, I guess that means it was worthwhile. But what I was surprised about was the outcome of this seems to be that they have to come up with a definition of antisemitism and-

Rafael Epstein:

Antisemitism, Islamophobia, and First Nations racism.

Colleen Harkin:

… Islamophobia definitions, but so what? And they’re all going to do their own definitions, which was what the problem was in the beginning, that there wasn’t this sort of unified understanding about what’s okay and what isn’t okay. So they’re all going to go off and come up with a definition of their own, which may or may not make any difference whatsoever. And the rules and the regulations that we have that already exist, nobody leaned into those. So I just looked at it and went, “What was that all about? What’s the point of it all?” So we do have laws about things like trespass, damage to property, intimidation. They all exist.

Rafael Epstein:

But they’re much easier, aren’t they? They’re much easier issues.

Colleen Harkin:

But they could have used those laws to lean into them to manage it differently. The regulation is actually there. It exists. They could have leaned into it. And just asking people to come out with a definition of their own, I don’t think it solves anything.

Rafael Epstein:

What do you think, Emma?

Emma Dawson:

I think the testimony has been really distressing this week.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s true.

Emma Dawson:

And I think that there is a benefit in uncovering this because it’s been portrayed as, well, if you object to this, then somehow you’re a supporter of genocide if you object to our objection. And I think the fact is that universities do have a responsibility not only for the safety of their students, but of their staff and some of the things that occurred, particularly to the professor here in Melbourne whose office was occupied, were really beyond the pale. Yes, there’s always been student protests. There’s always been student action on campus. Every other student action I can remember has been against racism and against taking a position against someone because of their identity. This is very different. It seems that when it comes to Jewish people that it’s legitimate somehow. I think that’s wrong.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, it’s not about because they’re Jewish, it’s because-

Emma Dawson:

Oh, no.

Rafael Epstein:

… they’re somebody who seem to support Israel, so different.

Emma Dawson:

But Israel is a country. It is a democratic country. It exists and its leadership, as abhorrent as I find their actions at the moment, are elected. It’s basically, what would we say? Well, every Russian person on campus is suddenly persona non grata because Putin invaded Ukraine. No. And this is the ancient problem with antisemitism somehow. Somehow we seem to think, or the population seems to think that collective punishment of Australian Jews for the actions of an overseas government-

Rafael Epstein:

Is it collective punishment?

Emma Dawson:

It is, it is. I mean, what happened to that professor to have his office invaded by masked intruders and told that he was responsible for genocide because of his research is really, really offensive. And if it was done to any other group based on the actions of an overseas government, those students and the left political movement behind them would be up in arms.

Colleen Harkin:

But that’s what I mean by we actually do have these standards within our community, but they’re just not being implemented. We’re tolerating the intolerable.

Rafael Epstein:

Just to address something you mentioned, Colleen, you clearly feel you would like a standard to be imposed on the universities. The ABC has not adopted the definition that often gets discussed. I don’t want to get stuck into that because the ABC says, “No, no, we’re independent. We’ll define these things for ourselves.” Emma, should standards be imposed or do we have to trust universities and institutions like the ABC to come up with their own?

Emma Dawson:

So there’s a couple of differences there. The ABC is the public broadcast, I guess, a public broadcaster.

Rafael Epstein:

Let’s focus on unis too.

Emma Dawson:

But again, this goes to the universities now are run very much like businesses. Reputation management’s important. So they take a different approach than when they were very clearly public institutions of learning with all the principles that came with that. So I think on a high level principle, yes, we trust them to make their own regulations. They are meant to be the most educated, thoughtful people in society. But now that they’re being run very much by people with MBAs who are more concerned about reputation management, they’re probably not taking the right view. But I don’t like the idea of imposing a definition on everyone of saying that’s kind of like thought police stuff. You have to trust people to make the right decisions.

Rafael Epstein:

Is there agreement there, Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

The problem for me is that it’s not about whether it’s Islamophobic, First Nations, or Jewish people. The principle should apply that you just can’t do that.

Rafael Epstein:

But does it work if a government tries to impose a standard or do you have to ultimately say to the unis, do it yourself?

Colleen Harkin:

I think the unis have to do it themselves because there’s only so much regulation that actually works.

Emma Dawson:

This is a cultural problem.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s a cultural problem. Yeah.

Emma Dawson:

And it’s one where we as all of us as society have to be.

Colleen Harkin:

And that’s what I mean by we actually do already have the tools. We have the expectations. We’ve got to make sure that people implement it.

Rafael Epstein:

We have tried this week to really focus on something. We didn’t get a chance to talk about it today. We made a very deliberate choice this week to talk about violence against women starting last weekend. So two Saturdays ago, four women and girls were killed in Australia. All of the men and boys accused over their killings have been accused of murder and they are in some way, sometimes really closely known to them, sometimes less closely known to them. I’m going to ask you a very specific media question, Colleen. Do we in the media talk about it enough? Would it make a difference if we spoke about it more?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, probably I think it gets exposed in fits and spurts. It seems to come and go as an issue and then we sort of forget about it again. It does worry me that when it comes up, it seems to be a messaging into all men are bad, which I object to. I think that’s a problem. But there is clearly an issue that needs to be given more oxygen to on a more regular basis, not just every sort of 6 months or 12 months when three or four people have been murdered, that it becomes a big high profile. It’s almost like, and then we move on to the next thing. I don’t like it when it happens and then it sort of seems to be this masculine toxicity kind of narrative that goes with it because it’s a small percentage of very bad people. The other component of this is that I read a stat that said of the 100% of women who report having been in violent relationships, 30% of them left and went back. And-

Rafael Epstein:

There’s complex reasons for that.

Colleen Harkin:

Complex reasons. And I don’t know how you actually unpack it and deal with it and encourage someone to say, never go back.

Rafael Epstein:

Not always easy, is it?

Colleen Harkin:

It’s just shocking. I just don’t know how you deal with somebody who, for example, is emotionally very vulnerable themselves, financially vulnerable. There’s a whole lot of reasons why it happens, but it’s a very worrying stat. And it also means that 70% of them have stayed in that relationship.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, it’s intense. It’s really intense. Emma, thoughts on the coverage and solutions?

Emma Dawson:

If four men had died in workplace accidents in the space of 10 days, there would be nothing else on the news in this country. And this is murder. This isn’t an accident. So I do think-

Rafael Epstein:

I just want to pull you up there because there’s four specific cases and there are two in Victoria.

Emma Dawson:

Yes.

Rafael Epstein:

They’re alleged murders. They are killing, but they are alleged murders.

Emma Dawson:

Yes, sorry.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s okay. I just don’t want to get in the way of justice process.

Emma Dawson:

They’re alleged murders. Sorry. Thank you. You’re quite right. So yeah, I do think that we don’t take it seriously enough as a nation. Having said that, it is a very difficult problem to address. This government has actually put more money into prevention of family violence just about than any other combined. The reason that people don’t leave is they have nowhere to go. So investment in housing for people fleeing domestic and family violence is really important. But ultimately this is a problem about not just why the women don’t or can’t leave, but why men feel so desperately unhappy and angry that this keeps happening and that is a big social issue for all of us.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma Dawson and Colleen Harkin, I’ll get your culture shares in just a minute. I’m just going to get some news headlines with Mary McDonald. Good morning, Mary.

I am actually in a minute, I want to replay to you just what Mike Bush said about what happened on Wednesday morning, just because it’s really interesting and really entertaining. So that’s one little culture share. I have one of my own and that is I’ve discovered both the Guardian Weekly Football podcast. Apparently one of the hosts lives in Melbourne. So Max, when he gets home, I’m very excited about the Guardian Weekly Football podcast as well as The Athletic, which is an offshoot of the New York Times. They do a football podcast as well. They are sensational. I will miss the World Cup. That’s my culture share. Emma, what’s yours?

Emma Dawson:

I can’t talk about the World Cup. I’m just still traumatised. I’m an England supporter. My culture share this week is, we lost Sam Neill this week. And I would like to make a public service announcement, which is that Death in Brunswick is freely available on iview. And I’ve re-watched it this week.

Rafael Epstein:

Still good?

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, it’s great. The scene with Sam Neill and John Clarke in a cemetery, I’m not spoiling here, trying to dispose of the body-

Rafael Epstein:

You can’t spoil that film.

Emma Dawson:

… is just still gold. It also made me feel ancient because I think it was about 1989, 1990 set in Brunswick. I was in my teenage years. I spent quite a bit of time at share houses in Brunswick back in the day and it’s so familiar to me, but it also, it looks really old-fashioned. But yeah, it’s a lot of fun.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s because it’s a long time ago.

Emma Dawson:

I know. It is a long time ago.

Colleen Harkin:

It’s a long time.

Emma Dawson:

But yeah, Death in Brunswick. Get it on iview.

Rafael Epstein:

On iview? Oh, that’s good to know.

Emma Dawson:

It’s a nice view and vale Sam Neil.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes. Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

So I’m going to go and try and se The Odyssey because apparently that’s amazing. But if I don’t get there, what I am going to do tomorrow afternoon, and people might be interested in this, is there’s a walk. People probably have known about it forever. A walk from Glenaras Station all the way into the Collingwood Children’s Farm, all the way along Garden Street.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes, there would be. Yes.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. And it’s a 13 kilometre walk. So a couple of us are going to walk and walk back sort of 25 kilometre walk. And apparently it is beautiful. So all along under the freeway-

Rafael Epstein:

It is, yes.

Colleen Harkin:

… and up through the trees.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ve ridden it on a bike. I haven’t walked it.

Colleen Harkin:

Have you? Yeah. So just something nice to do if I don’t get to go and see The Odyssey.

Emma Dawson:

Lovely.

Rafael Epstein:

At my house, we have a rule, you’ve got to read the book before you see the film. Are you going to read the Odyssey first?

Colleen Harkin:

No. No, I should have. I’ve never read it.

Emma Dawson:

I read it at uni.

Colleen Harkin:

Did you?

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

More on it in the breach. Enjoy the walk.

Colleen Harkin:

Thank you.

Rafael Epstein:

Thank you for the recommendation.

Colleen Harkin:

Thank you.

Rafael Epstein:

Thank you guys. Colleen Harkin is at the Institute of Public Affairs. Emma Dawson is at the Chiefly Research Centre.

This transcript of Colleen Harkin on ABC Radio Melbourne from 17 July 2026 has been edited for clarity.