Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 21 November 2025

In this interview, Colleen Harkin appeared on ABC Melbourne Mornings with Justin Smith to discuss the IPA’s research on political insiders.

All media appearances posted onto the IPA website are directly related to the promotion and dissemination of IPA research.

Below is a transcript of the interview.

Justin Smith:

What a week. What a week. What a week it has been. So let us just wrap it up in a nice tidy little box please. Emma Dawson is the executive director of the Chifley Research Centre. Hello Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Hello.

Justin Smith:

And Colleen Harkin is director of the schools’ programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Hi Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning to you both and I don’t think it can be put into a little box. There’s too much. Big box.

Justin Smith:

What is it? Colleen, I’m going to start with you. How did you feel sitting back watching Brad Batten go and Jess Walton come in?

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I think Brad’s speech afterwards was a class act. I mean it sort of showed who he is and a level of high level of integrity. I thought, I mean Jess is a smart girl and she’s articulate and she’s capable and all of those sorts of things. I think her challenge will be to create the narrative that the people are desperately wanting to the state labour government.

Justin Smith:

Batten wasn’t doing that?

Colleen Harkin:

Well. The internal concern was obviously that it was a single story, that it was only about crime. I think that was resonating that people are very concerned about the crime rates. Whether he was able in the next year to expand on all of the other areas that are low-hanging fruit and whether his colleagues would’ve helped with that, that was their portfolio jobs, we’ll never know. I do think that, I mean all of the media personal commentary on things, he was a liked guy. People felt that he was getting somewhere and they did like him, but Jess is smart. She knows what she’s doing. She’s tough and I do think that she will be a formidable opponent.

Justin Smith:

Well, the story is that Brad Batten was going fine, but he had ticked a few people off in his reshuffle and they were out to get him. So those same people that did that to Brad Batten are still there and they’re standing behind a Jess Wilson. So I mean I guess it’s an open-ended question, but how does anyone feel safe as a leader at any time?

Emma Dawson:

Well, I mean that’s politics, isn’t it? Seriously, that’s sort of how the game rolls out.

Justin Smith:

Forgive me though, but if people-

Emma Dawson:

People align with on certain issues and then because you are all actually in the same team, you see it in all sorts of areas of life where you are all actually within the same community divided on particular single issues. So it’s not unusual.

Colleen Harkin:

Labour Party don’t play these issues out in the field. They do it all behind closed doors. That’s the ultimate difference. The liberal party is free speech. Say what you want, do what you want.

Justin Smith:

Emma, just before I get your… Emma’s about to burst if I don’t come to her in a second, but please, let’s have a listen to this. Brad Batten spoke outside the party room straight after he lost the leadership.

Brad Batten:

As a very proud member of the Victorian Liberal Party, I stand continuously proud in the role and the things that I’ve done for the community. The Victorian liberal party now has a very clear path to go towards the next election.

Justin Smith:

Emma Dawson, go.

Emma Dawson:

Look, it was a gracious speech by Brad Batten, cannot have been easy for him. Third leader now in 11 months. I think the point that you are trying to make Colleen about, they’ve split over issues. It’s not clear that they’ve split over issues here. It’s clear. I mean they’ve split over people’s ambition, let’s be honest. People like James Newbury and others who were not happy at the reshuffle, they have exercised their power. I sort of feel sorry for the people in the Victorian liberal party that haven’t had a shot at leader or deputy leader over the last few years. Are there many left that haven’t put their hat in the ring? I mean it’s…

Justin Smith:

Fomo.I think the kids call it.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, FOMO. And look to some extent, I think your point that’s politics is true, but it’s also one of the reasons that people are losing trust in politics and in the major parties is this constant talking about themselves. And this is not unique to the liberal party. Labour after its stonking federal win in May, there was a bit of factional skull duggery that saw Mark Dreyfus sort of knifed in the back. So these things, yes, they happen in political parties, but people are sick to death of it. They want them to talk about issues and they’re not.

Justin Smith:

Yeah, I mean if they’re not unique obviously to one party, but if you are a liberal party supporter and you sit there and you say, “Right, we’re 12 months to go, I’m sick of this labour government. I can’t wait to get rid of them. I’m going to even put on the blue and do what I can to campaign. Brad’s our guy, let’s go.” Then you find out he got rolled because there were some people that were unhappy with the reshuffle. That does tend to take the sting out of your revolution, doesn’t it?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, look, of course it does, but I think, and it’s not just the liberal party problem here it is the Messiah issue that we’ve created in politics where we’ve sort of followed the American style of presidential, one person standing to solve be all things to all people. And I mean-

Emma Dawson:

We’re in agreement on that.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, that’s not good for anybody.

Justin Smith:

That’s been around since Menzies and…

Colleen Harkin:

Not really I think in years past. No, I think in years past there was a spread of people who were more exposed in the media-

Emma Dawson:

And particularly at the state level, right?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah [inaudible 00:05:46].

Emma Dawson:

I think the rise of the premier, it’s partly due to COVID as well, but it is that cult of whose the person now rather than whose the party and what are the policies.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, what are the policies.

Emma Dawson:

But I think I want to make this point as a good feminist, they always put the women in when things are going badly.

Justin Smith:

Why?

Emma Dawson:

It’s the glass cliff phenomenon and it’s again not unique to one side of politics. You find that going back on the labour side, which I’m more familiar with, Carmen Lawrence, Joan Kerner, others that are… Anna Bligh in Queensland, they tend to come, and Jacinta Allan here in Victoria, they’d come in when a bloke’s on time and they lead the party in a difficult era and a difficult time. Susan Lee federally and now…

Justin Smith:

Colleen, do you agree with that?

Colleen Harkin:

I don’t usually subscribe to the misogyny kind of narrative, however, I will say that a lot of the conversation is around Jess’s age being young and yet nobody said anything when Daniel Andrews took over opposition and he was 38.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right.

Colleen Harkin:

No one mentioned Dominic Perrottet was 37 when he became Premier of New South Wales. I don’t usually subscribe to this sort of anti-female thing, but I am noticing it now that for some reason her age seems to be such a big issue and yet it never happens when the guys are young.

Justin Smith:

Now, and what you wear is a big part of it. How many kids you’ve got, how old the kids are.

Emma Dawson:

Headline in the age, battle of the Bobs, right, that it’s the next election is the Battle of the Bobs.

Colleen Harkin:

Can you imagine if we’re talking about men’s hairstyles?

Emma Dawson:

Give me a break. Chibbler Grant, I know you were pointing out, you were trying to say that this is being seen through that lens, but it, commentary, she’s young. I mean her age is less relevant to me than her experience. She’s only, she’s a first term MP and that to me indicates the liberal party’s getting pretty desperate for a face that they feel can connect with the electorate.

Justin Smith:

We are wrapping up the week. Emma Dawson is here, executive director of the Chifley Research Centre. Colleen Harkin is the director of the schools programme at the Institute of Public Affairs and I just had that feeling. They’re just about to really fire up. Greg’s in Sandringham. Hello, Greg. Greg, are you there?

Greg:

Yes. Good morning Justin. Just wanted make one quick comment regarding something your guests said actually flies in the face of basically about Vlad Vakman. He mentioned that he’s concentrated on one issue only, being crime of course, but why is he the blame that when it was actually the team he represented?

Justin Smith:

Sorry Greg, thanks for calling in. It’s not a great line, but I think we’ve picked up on what you said. So it’s the whole team behind Brad Batten. So if Brad Batten is only sticking to one issue, which is crime, or if that was the perception, why is he the guy that’s to blame for it? Colleen?

Sorry, I’m not looking you to answer the party. I’m just…

Colleen Harkin:

Well, that was sort of to what I was just mentioning was that this Messiah issue is that everybody sort of seems to think that there’s a triangle and somebody sits at the top of it and all responsibility sits on their shoulders for any media and I mean it’s not how it should be. Thing is that all parties and the liberal party in particular have to be very clear on what their policy positions are to create an alternative for people to vote for. Up until now, it’s not been entirely clear and there are some really big issues at state policy level, particularly around the treaty that they haven’t, I mean they said they’ll repeal it, but they haven’t yet educated people as to why. And it’s very important that people understand why, because it is a very emotive sort of goodwill kind of feel around it, but the consequences are outstanding. They’re staggering the potential.

Emma Dawson:

This is going to be a challenge for Jess Wilson, right? Because she was, correct me if I’m wrong here, the only liberal Victorian MP to support the voice referendum.

Colleen Harkin:

She did come out supporting the voice, yeah.

Emma Dawson:

And so she’s now having to take a hardline position against treaty in Victoria. I think that will cause her some questions about, well is she just doing that because it’s politically expedient? That’s the view of the people that have supported her for the leadership. Is it an issue on which she’s willing to stand up and make, if not a moral stand then certainly one about the ethics of playing politics with that issue?

Colleen Harkin:

Well she has said that she did support the voice publicly and she has said that she understands that the populous voted no and that the treaty is much more significant than the consequences of the treaty are far and above what the voice was ever going to be. So she has given an explanation of that, but I think the challenge for her is to actually explain to the public what is the treaty, what are the consequences and why the [inaudible 00:10:37] repeal it.

Emma Dawson:

Justin said, what is the position, why do you want to repeal it and can they actually repeal it? Because once its.

Colleen Harkin:

Well there’s a view that it’s not constitutional any way to start with, so I mean that’s-

Emma Dawson:

Let it play out through the court.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, correct.

Justin Smith:

Let’s have a little listen to the new leader of the liberal party in Victoria, Jess Wilson, who made one single point about why there needed to be change. She made it a few times.

Jess Wilson:

Today it was a line in the sand moment for the Victorian liberal party.

This was a line in the sand moment.

As I’ve said, today is a line in the sand.

Well, yesterday was a line in the sand moment.

Justin Smith:

Well, at least you got the talking points.

Colleen Harkin:

She did,

Emma Dawson:

But Brad Batten said the same thing when he took the leadership, and it reminds me of that old Robin Williams sketch where you’re talking about there’s a line in the sand if you cross this line, you die. Okay, for the back, you cross this line, you die. No, still you cross this line. How many lines are there going to be in the sand for the liberal party?

Colleen Harkin:

There’s a line in the sand I think.

Justin Smith:

There’s one voter I’m thinking about that… I was talking to a person that fit this description. A person who has voted for labour their entire life in Victoria and they were a big supporter of the Labour Party or the beliefs that went with it, but felt that the Andrews Allen governments had the-

Emma Dawson:

There’s a line in the sand. If you cross this line, you die. Okay, further back you cross this line, you die. No, still you cross this line. How many lines are there going to be in the sand for the liberal party?

Colleen Harkin:

There’s a line in the sand I think.

Justin Smith:

There’s one voter I’m thinking about that… I was talking to a person that fit this description. A person who has voted for labour their entire life in Victoria and they were a big supporter of the Labour Party or the beliefs that went with it, but felt that the Andrews Allen governments had had their time and it was time for a change and nobody can stay there forever and it is time for them to go. And they were probably on board with Brad Batten and ready to make that change. And now they went, oh, okay, all right, where are we at now? What do we do now? And the feeling that the opposition has been completely weakened, so put the liberal party voters to one side, who are probably not going to change their vote anyway, but it’s that swinging almost to the labour person that [inaudible 00:12:49]. Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Look, I do think that is true. It is the swinging voter that both parties always chase because the rusted on people, they are, they’re rusted on. It takes a lot for people to walk away from their preferred ideological. I mean, most people, there’s a small percentage of the population who are rusted on because they ideologically believe in the principles and the founding platform for the party, right? That’s you and I, isn’t it? Right? And we’re pretty odd people because we actually understand what that is and why we subscribe to it and all of that kind of stuff. The average person is much more sort of short, short-term, hip pocket voting style, not all that interested in politics. And they’ll pay their attention every maybe couple of months outside of an election and a concern with how the policies will affect them and they may not even really see them as policies. They’re sort of quick media grabs that they’ll understand something.

Emma Dawson:

That person that you described, Justin, is indicative of that i, I [inaudible 00:13:48] that while they’ve had a go, it’s time for someone else. Not every child gets to take a turn in politics. You have to demonstrate that you’ve got a programme and you deserve power.

Justin Smith:

No, but every party, every party does wear out though, don’t they?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, they run out. They run out of good ideas.

Emma Dawson:

And that’s them failing at their job in my view. I mean, I think one of the challenges about those swinging voters, and we have arguably more now than we’ve ever had, the rusted-ons are fewer and far between, and I think that’s an indication that a lot of politics has lost its ability to speak about values, to think about values, to explain an ideological position behind a programme and are just grabbing at what they think is coming through in the polls from those swinging groups. I would argue and always have that political parties would be much better served to think about what is our vision for the country and how do we persuade people to support us to deliver it? That’s really how politics should work.

Colleen Harkin:

I think media think has a role to play in that because it is so-

Justin Smith:

You’re not allowed to criticise the media.

Emma Dawson:

No, no. Especially the ABC apparently.

Justin Smith:

Stick to criticising politicians.

Emma Dawson:

I mean the media always, this has always been the case. The older politician complaining about the media is like a secret.

Colleen Harkin:

No, but I think the world has changed that. I see this very much an important part of a politician’s job is to educate people about the policy and why. That should be core. But the world has changed. Three and five second and ten second grabs. And so the opportunity to explain policy in 10 seconds is very difficult.

Justin Smith:

Oh, come on.

Do you mind if I jump in there? Politicians have ample opportunity on both sides to be able to sell what they’ve got.

Colleen Harkin:

Only in very small grabs. There’s not very much long-form journalism anymore.

Emma Dawson:

And there’s not a lot of focus on, I mean there are certain honourable exceptions. What they call the horse race rather than the policy suite. And there’s not as much capacity for people to analyse policies in the media as there was perhaps in the past. But more to the point, my bigger concern is that the breakdown of mass media, of one voice talking to many people and people dividing into tribes on not just social media but a lot of new so-called independent media that’s springing up that is so-called reader driven. So it works on a subscription model, which by definition means you are talking to a small group of people who think exactly like you all the time and that’s dangerous.

Justin Smith:

It’s ABC 7 7 4. It’s Justin Smith filling in for Raf. We’ll be back on Monday at 8:30, by the way. We are wrapping up the week. Please join us one 300 triple two seven seven four. What was the big story of the week for you? We are here with Emma Dawson, executive director of the Chifley Research Centre, Colleen Harkin, director of the school’s programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. It’s 20…

Voice Over:

Raf Epstein.

Justin Smith:

And we’ve got a text come through that said, which is probably more of a comment, says do the Liberals have a knife bin in the party room?

Emma Dawson:

A machete bin?

Justin Smith:

And Colleen, I’ve got to point out, we’ve had a few texts through taking umbrage at your use of the word Smart girl when talking about Jess Wilson, defend yourself.

Colleen Harkin:

Is that saying it’s patronising?

Justin Smith:

I guess so, yeah. That seems to be the general term.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I clearly don’t intend it to be patronising. I say it as a compliment. If I said someone was a smart bloke, would people take offence to that?

Emma Dawson:

No, no. It’s because you use the word girl. That says more about our age than it says about… I refer to everybody…

Justin Smith:

Yeah, everyone’s young now. Everyone’s a kid now.

Emma Dawson:

Everyone looks 12 to me.

Justin Smith:

Well, she’s an exceptionally young leader. No denying that.

Colleen Harkin:

Like I said before, Daniel Andrews was 38. Why is her age such an issue when no one cared?

Emma Dawson:

Justin Trudeau was prime minister of Canada, not much older than she is.

Colleen Harkin:

Correct. There is something going on that because, and I genuinely don’t usually subscribe to this, but there is an unusual narrative that is going on that somehow because a young mother that she’s not capable of doing that job. And yet young blokes, young men are never questioned that way.

Justin Smith:

Well, the opposition leader, it’s a rough side for your side of politics, opposition leader Susan Lee speaking to Raf yesterday. Many people also taking her to task over the use of this language.

Susan Lee:

We’re going to an IGA and we’re going to, as I said, talk to mums about how they’re struggling with the cost of living because right now, Christmas, you know mums are sitting at the kitchen table working out how they can make it all come together for Christmas. You’ve got to buy the presents, you’ve got to look after family, perhaps fit in a holiday.

Justin Smith:

That’s Susan Lee, opposition leader in the studio with Raf yesterday talking about her plans in Melbourne that day to go talk to some mums at IGA. I’m going to start with you, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Shades of Tony Abbott. When the mothers of Australia doing the ironing, they should think about the energy costs. That’s about 15 years ago. Look, people hear that and they go, oh, don’t reduce me to a mum. But I think, to be fair, the point Susan Lee’s making and she didn’t use this language, she’s talking about the mental load on women, particularly women with families and children at this time of year. Because women are the ones, in heterosexual families, particularly with school-aged children, perhaps older parents. They’re the ones that remember who everyone on the Christmas present list, organise, the Turkey, organise the Christmas tree, make sure everyone’s got the leave coordinate. It is that mental load that she’s talking about. So the language, bit reductionist. We’re not just mums, but when Christmastime hits, if you are a mum, let me tell you, the double shift comes in pretty quick.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, I would agree. I think we are sort of all a bit sensitive sometimes about… People worry whether I say smart girl or whether we say mums or we almost looking for things to object to. Talking to… I totally agree with you, Emma, that the women and mothers in particular bear a lot on their shoulders that a lot of people don’t really recognise or either publicly appreciate and show gratitude for. I don’t have a problem with some of that sort of colloquial language.

Emma Dawson:

I would be happy when politicians start saying, we want to talk to dads at the supermarket about the weekly shop, and do we want to talk to dads about that mental load?

Justin Smith:

Leave us alone. Just leave us in peace. Will you also-

Emma Dawson:

You’ll help if we tell you how to help.

Justin Smith:

We’ll just sit here and wait for instructions. I’m going to get in trouble for that comment, too. Raf was also talking to consumer affairs minister Nick Staikos yesterday, while we are ribbing politicians, and he made this point.

Nick Staikos:

Raf, I’m a millennial. I’m probably one of the older Millennials, but I’m a millennial and I get to live where I was raised.

Rafael Epstein:

I think I’m going to need a dollar now for every state politician that tell me they’re a millennial.

Justin Smith:

That’s right. So that’s now been mandated. That Raf, every time a politician says that they’re a millennial. And we were talking about this earlier this morning, we have had Anthony Albanese talking about being raised by a single parent. We’ve had Scott Morrison over the years talking about his footy team, other people talking about coming from humble beginnings. Do these things… Colleen, I’m going to start with you, do these things actually work on people?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I’m not a millennial, but I think that this sort of tagging of… They’re trying to humanise themselves. That’s the point of what they, I think where it succeeds is that it does help people get to understand them a little bit more and people like them, perhaps, but I don’t think it translates to votes. So I can like somebody and I can appreciate their background and I can agree with the same footy team or whatever it is. It doesn’t mean I’m going to vote for them. But I think that’s what they’re trying to do is to make a personal and human connection with other people.

Justin Smith:

Are they trying to stand out?

Emma Dawson:

Well, look, I think the generational thing is painful. There’s no more self-referential generation than baby boomers than the millennials. Gen X are notorious, we don’t define ourselves by our generation. It’s the whole thing’s manufactured to me. The idea that you’ve got more in common with people because of the year you were born rather than your other life circumstances.

Colleen Harkin:

And I want people who can do the job.

Emma Dawson:

I want people who can do the job. I think it’s different when they’re talking. For example, the Prime Minister talking about being raised in council housing by a single mother on sickness benefit. What he’s talking about is social mobility and he’s linking it to the Australian opportunity to build a good life without having come from inherited privilege. But people do after a while go, okay, enough of the lock cabin. We heard enough of the log cabin story. Demonstrate it in your policy. So I think when someone like Staikos is saying, I’m a millennial, the coded language there is, I understand the anger of young people that are frustrated that they can’t buy a house or whatever. That’s only going to get you so far until you actually deliver policies that help them. It’s a bit the same as, well, there’s no point having a woman leader if she’s not a feminist, right? Margaret Thatcher didn’t do a hell of a lot for women. I would say.

Colleen Harkin:

There’s also the point where these people I think have to be careful to say, I’m a millennial like you. Well, no, they’re not. I mean, most of these people have had secure jobs that pay very well for most of their employed time.

Emma Dawson:

Which to be fair, I think is the point that Staikos was making. He can afford to live where he grew up a lot of-

Colleen Harkin:

Because he’s been a political staffer and done whatever he’s done. So the average millennial is not in that situation anyway. So they have to be… How much they push those identity politics.

Emma Dawson:

Can I just jump in here? There’s a lot of myth. This generational thing I think is lazy and it’s damaging our ability to see the real forces at play behind some of our political problems. The idea that millennials have that boomers had everything easy that they had free education, cheap housing, secure jobs, very few of them experienced all three of those things. And when education was free, the tertiary education, it was only for 15 years. And only about 7% of people went to Uni.

Colleen Harkin:

And only a very small amount of people went.

Emma Dawson:

And I’m not saying you can compare house prices now with the interest rates in 1990, that’s a nonsense argument. But reducing everything to boomers had it good millennials have it bad, we are really not able to see the forces at play that have created the different economic fortunes of different generations. And let’s get beyond those labels and look at the actual policies. She says for the 7000th time.

Colleen Harkin:

No, I agree with you, and I think part of this is the expectation that, for example, is that everybody has to go to university. Well, no, they don’t. And we’ve created this scenario where they’re coming out of university with large debts that don’t serve them any purpose. The universities rife with things that kids don’t need to be doing or learning.

Emma Dawson:

They now are paid for a degree that gets them in the door the way that a leaving certificate from high school did 30 years ago. So it’s a different…

Colleen Harkin:

There’s big structural reform, [inaudible 00:24:35]

Justin Smith:

You two, are suspiciously agreeable today.

Emma Dawson:

I know.

Colleen Harkin:

I know.

Emma Dawson:

The festive season is upon us and the Christmas starting. I’m in a good mood.

Justin Smith:

We’ve got to go. But very quick and just say it in one word if that’s all right. Your cultural…

Emma Dawson:

The new quarterly essay from Sean Kelly, it’s called The Good Fight. What does Labour Believe in? And it’s an excellent nuanced take on the Labour Party looking at, not just its willingness to do big things now, but it’s historical position as part of government.

Justin Smith:

It’s so good. He does it so well.

Emma Dawson:

And Sean is very, very good.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I’ve got the opposite from a cultural perspective. A guy on Facebook..

Nat’s, what I reckon. Oh, the cook. The cook. And he is the most unlikely educator of chefs. He’s fantastic. Be careful. Every second word is an F-bomb, but long hair, tattoos all over him. Great food. He is terrific. He’s funny. He’s fabulous. Love it.

Justin Smith:

You’re wonderful. Thank you very much to the two of you. Thank you. Emma Dawson, executive director of the Chifley Research Centre. Colleen Harkin, director of the Schools programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. It’s 29-

This transcript with Colleen Harkin talking on ABC Melbourne Mornings from 21 November 2025 has been edited for clarity.