Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 27 March 2026

Rafael Epstein:

Joining us this week is Emma Dawson. Emma is the executive director of the Chifley Research Centre. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning.

Rafael Epstein:

And Colleen Harkin is with you, the director of the schools programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning to you both.

Rafael Epstein:

We had the One Nation earthquake in South Australia. We’ve got the Liberal Party reduced to maybe only one cab, definitely only one Maxi cab. You’ve got One Nation definitely getting some representation in the South Australian parliament. So they are the third state parliament to get a One Nation MP. We had a chat to our single One Nation rep. Her name is Rikkie-Lee Tyrrell. She’s one of the MPs in the Upper House for Northern Victoria. She thinks the wave is now coming for Australia as well. Here she is.

Rikkie-Lee Tyrrell:

It’s definitely going to bring a shake up to Victoria. I would like to see the coalition realise One Nation is not their enemy. We both have the same agenda at hand. We want to get rid of Labour and we need to work together to do that.

Rafael Epstein:

I’ve got to ask Colleen first. She wants to help the Liberal Party unseat Labour. Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

I think it’s interesting that Jess Wilson has already come out and said that there won’t be any kind of coalition that the Coalition of Victoria is Liberal and National Party. I actually think that’s problematic territory because what’s happening to the Liberal Party is it is losing part of its base and they are going to One Nation. And that to Rikkie-Lee’s point that they should be united in the fact that they’re anti-Labour. So their ambition is to remove the Labour government as opposed to fighting each other.

Rafael Epstein:

I want to make sure I heard you right. Are you saying Jess Wilson should not rule out a coalition with the One Nation MP?

Colleen Harkin:

I think they definitely should not rule out preferencing.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, but she ruled out a coalition. She didn’t rule out preferencing, did she?

Colleen Harkin:

She kind of dismissed One Nation per se. Do you know what I mean? She said, “I-“

Rafael Epstein:

She didn’t say, “No, I will not do a preference here with One Nation.”

Colleen Harkin:

I think she kind of did.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh, did she? Oh, okay.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, it certainly was the sentiment was we don’t want anything to do with them.

Rafael Epstein:

Distance, distance.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

And you think that’s a mistake?

Colleen Harkin:

I do. I do think it’s a mistake because I think that the average disillusioned Liberal voter could be convinced to either stay on board and/or to preference them to keep a larger umbrella over the party. The result in South Australia is extraordinary. Liberal Party being all but decimated and that the Liberal Party in Victoria should be looking at that and saying, “We have to claw back relevancy to our constituents. I’m not sure how they can do it if they’re going to also dismiss the One Nation type of voter.

Rafael Epstein:

What do you think, Emma?

Emma Dawson:

It’s fascinating. I’m not finding it as amusing as some people might think I am, because I don’t think it’s great for our country to have such splintered electoral politics going on all the time. And I don’t like the undercurrent of xenophobia that goes with the One Nation vote for many people. Electorally, what Colleen is saying makes sense, right? If their goal is to remove Labour, then they would work together. But the wonk in me comes out here, shock horror!

A lot of the people that are voting for One Nation, most of them are disaffected Liberal Party voters, but there’s a decent chunk. If you look in those outer suburban seats around Elizabeth.

Rafael Epstein:

This is South Australia.

Emma Dawson:

For example, in South Australia that came off the Labour Party, now they held those seats by very strong margins, so they’ve held onto them. The reason, in my view, and many other people as well, that people are flocking to One Nation, is not because they’re all racist and xenophobic. It’s because they feel completely economically disenfranchised and left behind. And the challenge here is that the economic policies that have been championed most strongly by the Liberal Party for the last 40 years are the reason these people have been left behind.

So voting Liberal is not going to solve their economic issues because their issues are to do with the loss of jobs to globalisation, to the privatisation of services, the running down of health and education systems, and the fact that their kids can’t afford a house. All of those things are the result of an economic system that remains championed by the leaders, leadership of the Liberal Party, particularly federally. And again, that comes back to that split between the more populist Andrew Hasty approach, who, for example, is open to a big tax on gas explosion.

Rafael Epstein:

Tax in gas. Who would have thought?

Emma Dawson:

And the more traditional neoliberal views of Angus Taylor and Jane Hume. And that is a big policy spot.

Rafael Epstein:

Hold on. I want to come to Victoria in a moment, but Wayne is calling from Mildura. What do you want to say, Wayne?

Wayne:

Yes, Raspa. I think the One Nation vote will be less in Victorian’s election than the South Australian election. And the reason being, Peter Malinauskas who was such a sure win to win that election, that the protest vote didn’t have as much effect, but it could cause major… People think it’ll cause major damage to Victoria.

Rafael Epstein:

So you don’t think that One Nation will do as role in Victoria?

Wayne:

No.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. Let me throw that to my panel. 1300-222-774. Colleen, do you think he’s right?

Colleen Harkin:

No, I happen to disagree with caller. So I think it’s really interesting, as you just mentioned areas like Elizabeth in South Australia had a 34% swing against the Labour government.

Rafael Epstein:

And sorry, Elizabeth is metro or regional?

Colleen Harkin:

No, it’s sort of like-

Emma Dawson:

That was suburban.

Colleen Harkin:

outer suburban. It’s where –

Emma Dawson:

They used to make cars-

Colleen Harkin:

Correct.

Emma Dawson:

… in Australia.

Colleen Harkin:

Even Malinauskas’s own seat had a 9% swing against him.

Rafael Epstein:

Malinauskas’s seat?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, his own seat. And he’s a pretty popular guy.

Rafael Epstein:

Very.

Colleen Harkin:

He’s not as nearly disliked as Jacinta Allan is. Her personal rating is really low. So I think that… I disagree with you as always, Em. I think that the disillusioned Liberal voter is disillusioned because the Liberal Party hasn’t created enough opposition, that people sort of feel like they’re a bit Labour light.

Rafael Epstein:

Can I ask you a pointed question? It should point out… Sorry to point this out again. Colleen sits on the administrative committee of the Liberal Party in Victoria.

Colleen Harkin:

Pay for my sins.

Rafael Epstein:

Are you worried-

Emma Dawson:

Rather it you than me.

Rafael Epstein:

David Feeney had a great line this week that the Labour Party might need to worry about One Nation because maybe they’ll lose an election. The Liberal Party have got to worry about One Nation because they might replace them. Is that true? Do you think-

Colleen Harkin:

Replace the government?

Rafael Epstein:

No, replace the Liberal Party. But One Nation might end up replacing the Liberal Party as the opposition. As a supporter of [inaudible 00:07:07] you’re on the admin committee. Is that a real prospect?

Colleen Harkin:

If the results in South Australia were replicated here, it would be very problematic for the Liberal Party.

Emma Dawson:

It’d be very problematic for Jacinta Allan. I think her seat would be in real trouble from that kind of vote.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, she already is. Her seat is already in play. So it will be very interesting. And I think six months is a long time in politics. A lot can happen between now and November.

Rafael Epstein:

One Nation are a force now, aren’t they?

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, they’re definitely a movement. There’s no doubt that it is now a movement.

Emma Dawson:

To the caller’s point, it’s more than a protest vote now.

Colleen Harkin:

Yes, correct.

Emma Dawson:

It’s not just a protest vote. These are people that are saying, “I am Jack of the system.” It’s like what we’re seeing in the UK, what we saw with Brexit, what we’re seeing. It’s the beginning of that kind of wave. Now we can either… And Labour is in government in the states that we’re talking about and federally, and the challenge for Labour now as a government is to say, “Do we just oversee this and let them tear themselves apart or do we recognise that there’s actually a real social and economic policy failure here that has left?” We’re talking about 20, 25% of people that feel that they are so angry at the system that they want to blow the law.

Rafael Epstein:

And has Labour stuffed that up?

Emma Dawson:

I think both sides have stuffed that up, but I do think the challenge, and not this particular government, right? I’m not holding anyone’s feet to the flame who’s in power now, but I think over the last 40 years, yes, the left, my left, my materialist concerned about economic equality left has been too slow to say these systems are exploitative and we need to reign them in. I think there’s-

Rafael Epstein:

No war, but the class war, ain’t it?

Emma Dawson:

No war but the class war. Sorry.

Colleen Harkin:

I think there’s also a lot of concern around social cohesion that’s driving this. And to your point, in any party, there are elements of extremists, but if you take it on face value with genuine intent, the patriotism element of One Nation I think has raised a lot of people to say, “Yeah, I really do want Australia to be the good place that I remember it being.”

Rafael Epstein:

Well, that’s why Albo talks about progressive patriotism, right? There’s a recognition from the major parties that part of the allure of One Nation is One Nation are proud about being Australian and the mainstream parties want to find another way or a better way to talk about that.

Emma Dawson:

And Malinauskas’s made that point in his acceptance speech, right? But my point would be, it’s not just this idea that social cohesion is all about race politics and cultural politics. Again, if people are feeling secure and enfranchised and they have control over their lives and if they work hard, they’ll get somewhere, they’re very, very, very unlikely to be persuaded by those other issues. So both parties [inaudible 00:09:59]

Rafael Epstein:

But if they’re getting insecure, they won’t.

Emma Dawson:

If they’re feeling insecure, then yes, it’s easy to blame the person in the next town that you think got your job and came from somewhere else, right? Rather than the system.

Colleen Harkin:

I think there’s much more nuance to it than that because people… The One Nation vote is coming. There’s like a U on it. People of high income and low income. So it’s not just about, “Have I still got my job?”

Emma Dawson:

80% of One Nation’s voters support a gas export tax. Just throwing that in there.

Rafael Epstein:

It might be the reason the Prime Minister wants to pursue it. It’s 17 minutes past 10. Emma Dawson is with you from the Chifley Research Centre, Colleen Harkin from the Institute of Public Affairs. Every Friday, we just chew through the news of the week. You tell us what matters. Tell us what we’ve missed in the news this week as well. 1300-222-774

Rafael Epstein:

The fuel crisis, I think we can call it a crisis because A, the prices haven’t been this high before. B, most of us don’t have a memory of petrol stations running out of fuel. Worth pointing out, most of them don’t run out of fuel for long. Worth pointing out, there’s more fuel sloshing around the system now than there was at the start of the war. Emma, have the state and federal governments handled it well?

Emma Dawson:

As well as possible given the extraordinary circumstances. I think, look, we agreed last time we were on that the issue with our fuel reserves is a longstanding one and both sides have some responsibility for that. I don’t think it’s helpful for politicians, for example, like Barnaby Joyce to be panicking people about fuel supply. And I do think a lot of the problems have arisen because of severe spikes in demand as people have panicked, or as we acknowledged a couple of weeks ago, say in some cases they rightly feel this is a survival issue for them.

Rafael Epstein:

And a lot of people can’t get what they need, right?

Emma Dawson:

That’s right. That’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

A lot of people can’t get the diesel delivery they need to do when they need to.

Emma Dawson:

So I think it’s a really difficult problem for the government to try to deal with. They are taking some fairly extraordinary steps now. But we can’t underestimate the impact this could have on our whole economy. We’re not alone in this, in the world, but we are uniquely vulnerable to some of these supply chain issues being as isolated as we are. And it will. There will come a point at which everything will stop working if we don’t have transport and we don’t have fertiliser.

And we are food reliant. We export more than 80% of our crops. So we’re not going to starve. But yeah, it’s a big challenge. And I think the ACCC, I think Jim Chama said, haul the retailers in a couple of weeks ago to tell them to do the right thing. They’re using the powers that they’ve got institutionally, but obviously they’re looking at what they can do more, do further.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, they released 100 million litres of fuel at a lower grade fuel to sort of get a bit of extra into the system. And they could have done that immediately. So the idea, it is a crisis and they didn’t kind of pick up on it being a crisis straight away. They kind of were like, “Just stay home. Everything will be okay.” And I think to your point, and I’m not saying we’re going to starve, but the trucks have to have the fuel. The farmers have to be able to sew and reap the harvest and all of that kind of stuff and get it to us.

So it is a really serious problem that we’ve got. And to the point you just made it, it hasn’t happened overnight. We used to have eight refineries. We now have two, so we are much more dependent on importing. We don’t have the sovereignty that we used to. We import 80% of our fuel. So it’s not going to be solved anytime soon.

Emma Dawson:

But I would argue, as you said at the start, Raf, of this particular chat, there is actually more fuel in Australia now than there was before.

Rafael Epstein:

People aren’t acting as though there is though.

Emma Dawson:

No. And you can’t expect people to behave completely rationally in a crisis. So the point that-

Rafael Epstein:

Could I? Might be worth pointing out.

Emma Dawson:

.. it’s a distribution rather than a supply issue.

Rafael Epstein:

I think it’s difficult to say don’t panic.

Emma Dawson:

No, it is.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

Because people aren’t getting fuel when they used to get fuel.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right. Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

So you can’t say, “Oh, everyone just calm down.” And because of course the people who are saying calm down, they don’t have to worry about fuel, do they?

Emma Dawson:

They don’t have to worry about it. No, they usually live on a train line or have access to petrol because they’re in the city.

Rafael Epstein:

And this is not a criticism of them, but Anthony Albanese and Angus Taylor are never going to have to worry about fueling their car.

Emma Dawson:

They’re never going to have to worry about that.

Colleen Harkin:

No, they are not. That’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

So it’s difficult. So I’ll ask you both again, just on language and rhetoric. Emma, have they used the right words?

Emma Dawson:

Yeah. I think they’ve been trying to strike that balance between not making people panic more than they should and trying to be reassuring about the facts that there is fuel coming, it is available. And to do that, you have to strike a very reasoned tone. If that’s seen as not sympathetic to the individual plight of people, then I don’t know what you do about that.

Colleen Harkin:

But I’m not sure that they have secured the fuel that we need. I think that’s the problem, is that-

Rafael Epstein:

Well, they have. So they had six ships cancelled. They refilled those orders and there are no other ships that have been cancelled yet.

Colleen Harkin:

Yet, right? There’s no sense that there’s-

Rafael Epstein:

Well, how far in the future do you want to go?

Emma Dawson:

This is right, yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, we’ve got, what is it? 30 days supply. That’s not very long. And so that’s why people still feel the sense of panic.

Emma Dawson:

But we had 30 days supply 14-

Colleen Harkin:

I’m [inaudible 00:04:45] all the ways.

Emma Dawson:

… says ago as well. So we’re maintaining the reserve-

Colleen Harkin:

Emma, I don’t think people realise that we’ve always only had 30 day supply.

Emma Dawson:

That’s right, that’s right, that’s right.

Colleen Harkin:

So that’s news to most people.

Emma Dawson:

Exactly.

Colleen Harkin:

Other countries, I think it’s Denmark or something like other places that have 200 and 400 days. We are exceptionally vulnerable from that point of view.

Rafael Epstein:

We are literally at the end of the pipeline. It’s 23 minutes past 10. We were talking earlier about One Nation and the implications from South Australia on Victoria. John’s in Canterbury. What do you want to mention, John?

John:

I’m doing some work for the Australian Population Research Institute run by Dr. Bob Birrell, ex Monash Academic. And a lot of this One Nation support is not surprising in that they’ve been doing polling for a few years, which is showing very strong majorities against high immigration concern about aspects of multiculturalism, concerns about patriotism. These are people who very strongly belong to Australia. And he’s sort of theorises, about 60% of Australians are what he’d call Australia first. And the other 40% is sort of, for want of a better word, 40 are open Australian people. And this sort of comes across in the voice referendum, I suppose, which is very similar sort of …

Rafael Epstein:

Similar sort of demographic, maybe.

John:

But the Bondi massacre probably triggered a lot of this to come to the surface and the coalition imploding.

Rafael Epstein:

Is that racism, John, or not? What do you think?

John:

No, no, it’s not racism. It’s people just concerned about what they see around them, things changing, but they’re not racist. It’s just concerned about jobs, about their kids, their future.

Rafael Epstein:

I hear what you’re saying, John. Worth pointing out as well, the amount of increase of the population barely changed from 2010s through till now. But I don’t want to get into a debate about immigration numbers now, because I want to give Rory a chance to say something about petrol, calling from Fitzroy. What do you want to say, Rory?

Rory:

Hey, Raf, good morning. I just want to say that it seems a bit rich that we’re shifting the blame to the public about panic buying. People don’t usually have the opportunity to purchase petrol at this amount at these prices. So people are going to purchase petrol at the lower prices in a larger amount because we’re in a cost of living crisis. Doesn’t it seem a bit rich, that we’re seemingly blaming the public, saying that people are panicked buying? I understand that markets are allowed to set a price or merchants are allowed to set a price for something at whatever they want, essentially, but could we not … I don’t really have a solution here, but could we not-

Rafael Epstein:

But don’t blame the people buying petrol because they’re worried it’s going to go up.

Rory:

Well, they assume that it’s going to go up, which it has.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, I think it’s a very safe assumption, isn’t it, Rory? And I made this … I filled my car up when it was a third empty and I wouldn’t normally. And I thought I didn’t want to waste the money, so I went and filled it up. And Michael’s in Parkville. What do you want to mention, Michael?

Michael:

Yeah, good morning. Look, the solution to petrol and inflation at the moment, every other problem isdiplomacy. We need, as a country, Australia needs to step up. Albanese needs to step up and really engage and lead the diplomacy and try and get brokers some sort of peace treated between all these-

Rafael Epstein:

So hey, Michael, your phone line’s horrible, but I’m going to try this. Do you think our Anthony Albanese could do what Qatar, Pakistan and the UN can’t?

Michael:

Of course we can. We’re not disabled as a country. Of course we’re capable. We’re very capable-

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, you’d like him to try.

Michael:

Well, we haven’t tried.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, I hear you. I hear you.

Michael:

We haven’t tried. And all we’ve done is we’ve [inaudible 00:08:33] and Anthony Albanese has spent too much time gaslighting Australians and try and take sides. And I think it’s time that he step up and go out there and lead the world in diplomacy. Go out there and get a broker deal. That’s the only solution. There is no other solution.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, I think your logic is sound. There is no other solution to the price rise. I’m not sure. I guess I’m happy to throw that out there whether or not Anthony Albanese should be leading the charge. I’m going to ask both of my panellists in the time I’ve got left. You can weigh in as much or as little as you like. There’s been two big strikes. It’s the first ABC strike in-

Emma Dawson:

20 years.

Rafael Epstein:

… 20 years. And then it’s the most significant state teachers strike in Victoria for quite some time as well. Let me just play the Deputy Premier, the education minister, Ben Carroll. This is what he tried to say to teachers on the day they walked away from the classrooms.

Ben Carroll:

To the teachers taking industrial action and to the teachers that are at class today, I hear you, I understand you, and I thank you for every day, pouring yourself into our most vital resource, our school children.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, 1970s, back to strikes all the time. What do you make of people going on strike?

Colleen Harkin:

So my original qualification is in education. I was a teacher in my earliest, in my first job. I think-

Rafael Epstein:

Ms. Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah. The job of teaching has changed exponentially. It is just an impossible job now. They are under extraordinary demand and pressure to be everything to everyone, individual lesson plans for individual kids’ needs and disciplines non-existent in a lot of places. It’s an impossible job. Having said that though, a 35% increase is extraordinary demand.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s what they want.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s what they want.

Rafael Epstein:

Government’s offering 18 and a half.

Colleen Harkin:

They’ve offered 18 and a half, which is still a one and a half billion dollar increase in a structural increase to the wage bill, the state wage bill, permanently fixed in. That’s a lot of money difference. And I did a comparison during the week. A graduate teacher gets around about 79,000 compared to a nurse, about 73, and a policeman 81. So they’re on parity with those sorts of new jobs, but they are 12% less than New South Wales. But my view of this is it can’t just be about the money because the entire profession needs-

Rafael Epstein:

Well, they do say it’s not just about the money. They just say it’s about conditions.

Colleen Harkin:

Right. The profession needs an overhaul. Teachers cannot keep doing what they’re being asked to do.

Rafael Epstein:

I know you’re the director of the schools programme. I’m sure you could do-

Colleen Harkin:

I could talk about it non-stop.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes or no, do you support them striking?

Colleen Harkin:

Not really.

Rafael Epstein:

Not really? Okay.

Colleen Harkin:

I’m not a big fan of strikes. Full stop. I sort of think it’s … I mean-

Rafael Epstein:

No, I asked you, that’s fine. Emma, what do you think?

Emma Dawson:

I’m 100% behind them. I think they do one of the most important jobs in all of human history, and they are chronically undervalued and underpaid. I’d give them even more than 35% if I could. And strikes are the only real tool that people that only have their labour have in order to fight for their rights. And I think both the strike amongst Victorian school teachers, and thank you all for everything you do and for looking after our kids, and the ABC are indicative of a bigger problem, which is we’ve got a big inflation issue. The ABC, for example, are really only looking for 10% over three years, which is in real terms, given inflation’s running at about 3.8, a pay cut over time.

And I’d just like to point out that we are having this conversation about the ABC’s pay in the week that Kyle Sandilands is going to court to argue over the fact that he’s unhappy he’s lost his $192,000 a week contract. If anyone thinks Kyle Sandilands is worth more than the journalists on air at the ABC, I would like to take them out for dinner and persuade them otherwise.

Rafael Epstein:

He is worth more because he’s getting paid more –

Colleen Harkin:

I’m pleased to say I’ve never listened to him.

Emma Dawson:

Neither have I. And I’m very proud of Melbourne for rejecting him. But let’s just put these things in perspective. It’s about what we value. And I think anyone who like I do lives with the ABC 24/7, found that 24 hour period, I supported it wholeheartedly, but geez, I missed you guys.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s very kind of you to say. So the ABC wasn’t there for you. So you picked up an old book.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

You went to a new Instagram poster. What is your culture share for the week?

Emma Dawson:

It’s nothing as worthy as that.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s okay.

Emma Dawson:

But I have to share that my daughter and I went to the movies the other day because occasionally you have to see something on the big screen.

Rafael Epstein:

You do?

Emma Dawson:

And that’s something at the moment is Project Hail Mary with Ryan Gosling.

Rafael Epstein:

And?

Emma Dawson:

It’s fabulous. It’s good sci-fi, right? It’s funny. It’s got some deeper messages. The science stuff kind of makes sense and is interesting. It’s not padded out with lots of ridiculous extra characters. There’s an element of the sort of Tom Hanks and Wilson thing, if I can give you that on the desert island. It’s a lot of fun and it really is one to see on the big screen.

Rafael Epstein:

Project Hail Mary.

Emma Dawson:

It’s a good one for the school holidays.

Rafael Epstein:

Ryan Gosling, same guy who wrote The Martian that’s-

Emma Dawson:

That’s right, that’s right.

Rafael Epstein:

… Matt Damon.

Emma Dawson:

And it’s rated M so you can take older kids. It’s good.

Colleen Harkin:

Sounds good. I watched the new The Dinosaurs narrated by Morgan Freeman, and it’s the executive producer, Spielberg. And it takes you from 250 million years ago to about 160 million years ago. And it goes through all of the dinosaurs and how they have evolved and it kind of chunks through and it kind of goes, here’s 250 million years ago, here’s what was around. And then fast-forward and all of a sudden 30 million years later. It’s really interesting. It’s easy, accessible for kids. So it’s a light touch on history and things that you need to know about the timing, takes you down to about 150 million years ago. And it gets to T Rex and all that kind of stuff.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, wow. It’s just called The Dinosaurs?

Colleen Harkin:

The Dinosaurs, and Morgan Freeman –

Emma Dawson:

His narrating it is very soothing.

Colleen Harkin:

Anything with Morgan Freeman’s voice. But it’s one of the CGI, the graphics of fabulous, the closeup of looking at them and what they did and what they … Carnivores and herbivores. It’s really good. It’s four sessions and we binged it for four hours.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, I’m expecting the two-minute lecture on the evolution of the dinosaurs next time you’re on, okay?

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, there you go.

Rafael Epstein:

Now that you understand it all. The Dinosaurs, Project Hail Mary, thank you both for coming in. Really appreciate it.

Colleen Harkin:

Pleasure.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen Harkin from the IPA, Emma Dawson from the Chifley Research Centre.

This transcript of Colleen Harkin on ABC Radio Melbourne from 27 March 2026 has been edited for clarity.