Colleen Harkin on The Weekly Wrap Mornings ABC Radio Melbourne – 24 April 2026

Rafael Epstein:

And joining me to talk about the news of the week is Emma Dawson. Emma’s the Executive Director of the Chifley Research Centre. Good morning, Emma.

Emma Dawson:

Good morning, both.

Rafael Epstein:

And Colleen Harkin is the director of the schools programme at the Institute of Public Affairs. Good morning, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Good morning, Raf. Good morning, Em.

Rafael Epstein:

I want to know if you both think the government is doing the right thing on the NDIS, the National Disability Insurance Scheme. Have a listen here to the minister in charge. He says the changes are going to have an impact and effect on people’s plans.

Audio:

We will reset the total cost of social and community participation back to where it was last year and prevent any runaway growth. Now, I want to be honest with people, this will have a material impact on participant plans.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen, I’ll start with you. Are the government doing the right thing?

Colleen Harkin:

Yes. Short answer is yes. NDIS has kind of lost its original purpose entirely. It’s got a budget of about $50 billion a year, which is equivalent to, give or take, the defence budget. And it has kind of grown to an unsustainable proportion of dollars, people, industries that are rotting the system. In Australia, we’ve got 16% of all boys age five to seven are on NDIS. It’s lost its purpose. It has to be reconfigured.

My concern is that it will just create different buckets and the same money will be spent and people will be pathologized. It’ll just dissipate in terms of a single line item, and the same thing will be happening behind the scenes. But it does need to be addressed. People have known for a long time it’s broken. So I support them in trying to address it. I’m not quite sure that they’ll actually get to the right solution, but it does definitely need addressing.

Rafael Epstein:

What do you think, Emma?

Emma Dawson:

I agree to some extent. Now, the first thing I want to say, and I could talk about the NDIS for an hour, so reign me in. The first thing I want to say-

Colleen Harkin:

Not like you.

Emma Dawson:

Not like me. … is that this idea that we can’t afford to support people with needs who have disabilities is wrong. And I want to push back on that rhetoric. We can afford it. We’re a wealthy country, and the measure of a civilised country is how you treat your most vulnerable citizens. Having said that, it’s absolutely true that as Mark Butler said at the press club, the scheme is endangering losing its social licence, of losing the support from the vast majority of people in this country who all contribute to it through their taxes.

And that’s because they’re seeing not just big multinationals clipping the ticket, not providing real services, but they’re seeing things like people with relatively mild conditions who are able to go to mainstream schools, function in the employment sector, they’re fully mobile, but they may have ADHD or mild autism that means they need some support for social activities. There’s a big difference between a kid with autism who needs to go to a pony club that is designed for disabled children to help them understand working in groups, socialising, reading cues, and providing private horse riding lessons for teenagers who otherwise are relatively healthy. And we’ve seen a lot of that going on.

People with genuine functional impairment… And that’s what the scheme’s trying to get back to. And a lot of these problems were baked in the design, right back in the Labour Days. And then there have been things that have occurred on the Liberal Party’s watch, the coalitions watch, that have exacerbated those problems. But the point of it is, it’s an insurance scheme. It’s not welfare. It’s not meant to provide you with an income or offset those activities that you would otherwise pay for privately because they enhance your enjoyment of life.

It’s meant to be, if you give birth to a child with significant disabilities who’s going to need a lot of care, or you suffer an injury that causes a disability that means that you can’t function, you can no longer go to work, then this is a collective insurance scheme to enable you to participate.

Rafael Epstein:

For everyone. So let me ask you both something, what would you say, Emma, to the person who’s going to miss out on assistance that they say is essential?

Emma Dawson:

They are part of a community, that the social contract is a two-way thing. So if we’re expecting, for example, every worker in this country’s taxes to go to fund this scheme, which is what happens, then we have to accept that you’re receiving collective help from the state. And there is a role for the state, the collective to say, “Okay, what is appropriate for us to give to you as part of this insurance to help your life?” And the minister’s been really clear, these changes to plans and people losing something, they’ll start to assess those in October, but it’s two years until these plans will really change.

Rafael Epstein:

Yes.

Emma Dawson:

It’s about saying, “Well, if you can function, if you are already out in society, you’re not functionally prohibited due to your disability-“

Rafael Epstein:

And what if the person says to you, “No, you’re going to stop…” I’ll throw it to you actually, Colleen. “What’s going to happen to me, or my child, is it will stop me functioning or living my life.”

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I think part of the challenge here is that we’ve kind of pathologized everything and we’ve incentivized incapability. And I agree with Emma that-

Rafael Epstein:

Incentivized incapability?

Colleen Harkin:

Incapability.

Emma Dawson:

Oh, I don’t know about that.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, because it is true, because-

Emma Dawson:

This is the Josh Szeps line, right, from [inaudible 00:05:49]

Colleen Harkin:

No, no, no. It’s because it’s to what you just said. The original intention of this programme was honourable. It was to help people who were severely disabled, who completely needed all of the assistance. But that’s not where it is now. We have perfectly, inverted commas, “capable people” who are funded… I mean, it wasn’t very long ago that you could claim prostitution on the NDIS. That’s not what it was intended for.

Emma Dawson:

Sex work, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah, sex work.

Rafael Epstein:

No, labels are important.

Colleen Harkin:

But that’s not what it was intended for.

Rafael Epstein:

That could be… I can’t believe I’m making this argument, only because I don’t want to get into detail of it. It’s something I don’t understand. Sexual intimacy actually might be something really important for someone in a particular circumstance.

Colleen Harkin:

Yes, 100%.

Rafael Epstein:

That is possible.

Colleen Harkin:

But that is not what the NDIS’s intention was for. It was for people who were of large disability who absolutely really needed that assistance, not for people who are capable of-

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. If I can, I just want to bring in Frank from Kilmore, Emma Dawson and Colleen Harken with us. Frank, what do you want to say?

Frank:

Hello. I got a 42-year-old autistic son, and we finally kicked him out the house about four or five years ago, one of our houses, and he’s not paying much rent or whatever. And every time something like this comes up, “Oh, dad, I’m going to lose my…” whatever, whatever. I said, “Alex, you’re working nine hours a week.” He works from 8:00 to 11:00, three days a week. Three days? Yeah. And I said, “You’ve physically got two hands, two legs, you can walk, you can see, you can do this. There’s people that got nothing and-“

Rafael Epstein:

Sorry, can I ask, is he a participant on the NDIS?

Frank:

Yes, he is.

Rafael Epstein:

Right. Do you think he’s likely to lose what he gets?

Frank:

To be truthful, I don’t really care if he loses it because it’s making him lazier.

Rafael Epstein:

Right.

Frank:

When he comes home at 11:30, he stays up until three o’clock in the morning, and then he gets up at 12 o’clock or one o’clock in the afternoon.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m guessing he would say you don’t get it. You don’t get what he has to live with.

Frank:

Mate, he’s said more than that to me, believe me.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m sure. Frank, thank you. It’s good to get all these different stories and different perspectives, I guess. I’m happy to take more calls on the NDIS. I do want to try and flick the script, or flick the switch if I can. Maybe we’ll come back to the NDIS because I’m trying to work out, I’m trying to guess which way my guests are going to go on the next one, a gas tax. I’ve had ministers actually say to me, “Yes, I buy the argument, but not now. Because right now we need petrol and diesel from the governments that invest in our gas and we don’t want to piss them off.”

Colleen is now the right time for a higher tax on the gas we export.

Colleen Harkin:

No, exactly to the point you just made. Right now we need to secure all of the energy resources that we can. The idea of taxing any of our resources is always problematic, because you don’t want to create so many hurdles to investment that people don’t want to invest here. But that’s a bigger conversation at a different time. Right now, I think we have to be very cautious about making sure that we don’t annoy the people who we already have great trading relationships with. And what we need to do is be securing our resources and securing our energy. So now is not the time to have this conversation. It may well be down the track, but our resources is paramount now.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay. Emma?

Emma Dawson:

We don’t get nearly enough return on the natural resources that multinational companies profit from, and they are resources that belong to all Australians. I did an analysis on this about eight or nine years ago. The challenge for us is that the thing that is cut through in a popular way is a 25% gas export tax, right? And I get it. It’s an easy thing to understand. It’s been picked up… It was originally an Australia Institute idea, picked up by David Pocock, PuntersPolitics, it’s cut through. The problem is it’s not the best way to do it. It appeals to the masses, but it would cause all of those problems in our current trade relationships.

Rafael Epstein:

Can I just-

Emma Dawson:

There is a-

Rafael Epstein:

Just a detail on that…

Emma Dawson:

Yep, yep, yep.

Rafael Epstein:

Is that because it would change the nature of the deals that have already been signed?

Colleen Harkin:

Yes.

Emma Dawson:

It would. It would increase the cost of those exports for our trading partners when we need the most. There is a submission to the inquiry that has just concluded by the Superpower Institute, which was set up by Ross Garnaut and Rod Sims. Rod Sims was head of the ACCC. He knows about trade. Ross Garnaut’s probably our greatest environmental economist. It calls for what Norway actually does. And this is what I find bizarre. The Australia Institute’s gone with this populist thing and they always go on about, “Look at Norway.” Well, Norway and Australia, just quickly, the companies make about the same revenue from both countries’ exports. We get less than 10% of what Norway gets from their exports in return to the people. But Norway doesn’t use a flat export tax. It uses a two-way cashflow tax, which is what the Superpower Institute has suggested.

Rafael Epstein:

So it’s like a similar to a turnover tax?

Emma Dawson:

It is. And it actually fixes the petroleum resource rent tax, rather than introduce a new tax just on exports. It wouldn’t disrupt those trade relationships. It wouldn’t actually put us at risk in the market. It would recognise the investments that have been made by the sector, but it would return not much less than a flat 25% tax that-

Rafael Epstein:

So there’s a better way to it?

Emma Dawson:

The long on that is about 17-

Rafael Epstein:

Better way to [inaudible 00:11:19]?

Emma Dawson:

Much better way to do it.

Colleen Harkin:

Would you do it now?

Emma Dawson:

This one I would because it would not affect those trade relationships, Colleen. It would actually keep them in place, and people would see that it was a measured way of just fixing a problem. The PRRT works really well for oil. It doesn’t work as well for LNG, and that’s to do with all of the carry forward. So if you actually want to do it properly, you would reform the PRRT in the way that the Superpower Institute has suggested. Doesn’t affect the trade relationships, recognises the investment, still has between 13 and 16 billion dollar return to the Australian people. That’s the way to do it.

Rafael Epstein:

Has she persuaded you, Colleen?

Colleen Harkin:

Am I allowed to say maybe?

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, of course. You say what you like.

Emma Dawson:

I’ll send you an email.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, no. Yeah, actually-

Rafael Epstein:

She’ll send you a voluminous email.

Colleen Harkin:

No, I’m interested in upskilling a bit on that, because you obviously know a lot more about it than I do. I think the other broader thing here for me is, and you will both bark at me, is that we shouldn’t just be talking about gas. Because the reason that some of our vulnerability is because we’ve shut down other… or we squeeze other industries. And so we are really vulnerable to that one area that everybody agrees is a good thing for us.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, you’re right. We should expand renewables.

Emma Dawson:

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Colleen Harkin:

No, thank you.

Emma Dawson:

Yes.

Rafael Epstein:

Can I just raise maybe a curly point in response to you?

Colleen Harkin:

Mm-hmm.

Rafael Epstein:

So America’s now, I think, the biggest creator, producer of both oil and gas. So they have more energy independence than they have ever had. It doesn’t matter.

Colleen Harkin:

Mm-mm. Yep.

Rafael Epstein:

We live in a global market. Even though they produce more oil and gas than anybody else, if the Strait gets blocked, their consumers suffer. So the idea that if we drill more oil or produce more gas, we’re somehow immune, it just doesn’t work.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, I mean, no country-

Emma Dawson:

It’s nonsense. It’s a global market.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, no country is immune from everything all the time, right?

Rafael Epstein:

Mm-hmm.

Colleen Harkin:

But we could be much less vulnerable than we are. We’ve spoken about this before, give or take 30 days reserves. There’s not very much. We could have a lot more. We’ve got two refineries. One of them’s on fire at the moment.

Rafael Epstein:

Not any more.

Emma Dawson:

Not anymore.

Colleen Harkin:

Oh, is it out?

Emma Dawson:

We’ve actually got more fuel in the country now than before the start of the Iran war.

Colleen Harkin:

I mean, I’d be a big supporter of nuclear. I mean, there are options there that we don’t take.

Emma Dawson:

Again, does not stack up economically in this country. We don’t have the water, and we’re so far behind the eight-ball that the infrastructure now would be absolute by the time [inaudible 00:13:41].

Colleen Harkin:

He’s going to stop me, I can see it.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, I’m going to press pause on… At 20 past 10, I’m not going to dive into the nuclear debate. Not right now, anyway. [inaudible 00:13:46] time.

Emma Dawson:

Renewables. Nuclear.

Rafael Epstein:

Neil’s calling from Mooney Ponds. What did you want to mention, Neil?

Neil:

Oh, hello. Yes. I’m a member of the Labour Party and I’ve been watching this sort of gas debate. It was interesting to hear the discussion around different ways of being able to get some of that taxing to occur. I just think they just need to do something. And if the Prime Minister chickens out, I think I’ll resign my membership of the Labour Party.

Emma Dawson:

Don’t do it, Neil.

Neil:

Don’t do it?

Emma Dawson:

Stay with us, Neil.

Rafael Epstein:

Why, Neil?

Neil:

Stay with us? I’ve been a longtime member of the Australian Conservation Foundation, and just looked at the way in which we’ve used our resources and almost given them to other countries. And, I know, it just seems to me that the power of some of these large mining companies and some of these large corporations just seems to hold too much sway.

Rafael Epstein:

Can I say something rude, Neil?

Neil:

You can. Go.

Rafael Epstein:

Prime Minister might not care if you rip up your Labour card.

Emma Dawson:

I care.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah. So Emma does, good Labour… But you know what I mean, Neil?

Neil:

Yeah.

Emma Dawson:

You’re not going to do it.

Rafael Epstein:

You’re a Labour member, right? Or you’ve been Labour member.

Neil:

You got to have some principles. You got to have some principles though somewhere, don’t you? And recently I didn’t get to my local Labour Party branch meeting where it looks as though the executive might come in over the top of the Essendon branch at the state level to appoint someone else and the local members don’t get a choice.

Rafael Epstein:

That’s [inaudible 00:15:12].

Neil:

And it’s sort of like, where are we going here? Come on.

Rafael Epstein:

So you’re saying there that you’re upset about policy, and now you feel like you’re being taken out of selecting the people who run for election and you’re just pissed off?

Neil:

Correct. I mean, it’s at a state level and it’s a different matter.

Emma Dawson:

It is.

Neil:

But [inaudible 00:15:24]

Rafael Epstein:

And, Neil, just on, the PM’s… Let’s just say I sent this audio to the PM’s office, right? They’re going to listen to your call and go, “Neil’s never going to preference Liberal over Labour. So what?” What would you say?

Emma Dawson:

That is so cynical, Raf.

Rafael Epstein:

I’m just putting it to him. Neil?

Neil:

Raf, I hear you. And there was this beautiful thing about someone was on a beach once and rescuing starfish and someone came along and said, “What are you doing? You’re rescuing that starfish. There’s hundreds on the beach.” And the answer was, “Well, I’m going to at least rescue this one.” So it’s a bit like, if there’s enough of us that put up our hand and say, “Come on, come on. When do we do this? If not now, when?” Then it’ll never happen. This is a great opportunity.

Emma Dawson:

Good on you, Neil.

Colleen Harkin:

I think both parties are suffering from that.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

Both parties are suffering from the-

Rafael Epstein:

Thank you, Neil, by the way.

Colleen Harkin:

… their base not feeling as though they’re actually being represented well anymore.

Rafael Epstein:

This is politics changing in a way I don’t think I’ve experienced in my 30 years in the media.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

This is tectonic shifts that none of us know what they mean yet.

Emma Dawson:

Well, this is why the Labour Party was founded, right? Because 150 years ago, working people had no power, had no say over the way we were governed. And so a labour movement sprung up in the UK and Australia in particular, we were world leaders, and it was a people powered movement. And so I’d say to Neil, you got to stay. You got to stay involved. More people need to get involved.

I mean, the Labour Party put out its national platform for consultation yesterday. We’re the only party that does that, that actually has a process where members can contribute to the national platform.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s not correct.

Emma Dawson:

Come along to the national conference.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s not correct. My god, I spend half my life doing stuff like like that.

Emma Dawson:

No, look, You do the policy work Colleen, and I give that to you. But it’s open to the public, our conference.

Rafael Epstein:

I understand. I understand what you’re saying.

Emma Dawson:

I’m running fringe.

Rafael Epstein:

Colleen…. So everyone knows, by the way, Emma’s worked inside Labour governments. The Chiefly think tank is the think tank most aligned with the Labour Party.

Emma Dawson:

It’s the official think tank of the Labour Party.

Rafael Epstein:

And Colleen has a role. She sits on the administrative committee of the Liberal Party in Victoria.

Colleen Harkin:

That’s a hobby.

Emma Dawson:

That’s sad for you, Colleen.

Colleen Harkin:

It sure is.

Rafael Epstein:

Emma just did the spruik then, the 30-second thing, like why people should stick with it. I don’t have to… What’s your spruik for the Liberal Party?

Colleen Harkin:

Well, Liberal Party is actually all about individual rights, responsibilities, freedoms that come with it. And there’s obviously the collective good, but your life is yours.

Rafael Epstein:

And if someone says to you, “The Liberal Party no longer talks to me, thinks about me, understands me,” what do you say?

Colleen Harkin:

I would agree with Em. You stay in the tent. You change it from inside, not outside. Protest votes, I completely understand them. But the way to actually change things, particularly in Australia, because we don’t have really enough people, we end up with this sort of a scenario where there’s 20% of people represented all over the place and we can’t get a collective agreement to move forward on anything. And I think that sort of holds things back.

Rafael Epstein:

Okay.

Colleen Harkin:

So I think you do… as frustrating as it is, you stick with inside the tangent, you have your fights internally, which we’re very good at doing.

Rafael Epstein:

Oh yeah, not.

Colleen Harkin:

But you do it internally. That where you have your voice.

Rafael Epstein:

Well, your internal fights, but everyone gets to watch. That’s the difference.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah.

Colleen Harkin:

But Labour Party has them too. It’s just that they… So we actually have this individual speech thing, right? And that if a Labour Party were to-

Rafael Epstein:

We don’t get to watch the Labour ones.

Colleen Harkin:

But if they cross the floor, they wouldn’t be a Labour Party person anymore.

Emma Dawson:

That comes from that history of we were working people who only had numbers. No money, no power, only numbers. So you combine any and you keep numbers together.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, it certainly changed.

Emma Dawson:

So look, things changed over many, many years.

Rafael Epstein:

Seems to be working.

Emma Dawson:

I don’t think it’s good enough to say to people, “Oh, you feel disenfranchised. Don’t worry, trust us.” We have to bring people in. And if you actually look at what I hope happens on… getting back to gas taxes. You can stand outside the party and scream, “Put 25% on exports,” but the actual hard work of looking at current situations, looking at trade relationships, looking at what is needed and then advocating for really care carefully designed policy work, that goes on internally.

Colleen Harkin:

Sure. But that’s-

Rafael Epstein:

I’m going to press pause there. I need to. I will come back with Colleen Harkin and Emma Dawson in just a moment.

Rafael Epstein:

Let’s get a view from Eman who’s calling from McKinnon. Have I pressed the button? I have. Eman, what do you want to say?

Eman:

Morning. Look, I think there’d be a lot of anger in the electorate and across Australia if our PM is seen to wimp out on properly taxing our gas exports by the multinationals, especially in light of the NDIS reforms, which I agree with, and that opens the door for one nation’s and Trump-like figures because people will look at this and look at the contrast between NDIS on one hand and let the multinationals get a free ride and say, “Well, you’re not working for us. You are beholden to the gas giants.” Simple as that.

Rafael Epstein:

There’s a fair few texts along those lines, Eman, and Bruce is in Toora, in South Gippsland. What’d you want to mention, Bruce?

Bruce:

Good day, Raf. I was told I was a realist idealist 60 years ago, and I still am, and I think we do need to charge 25% tax on exports of not just gas, anything that we export, because we’ve got to fund the transition to entire renewables. When I picture a world 30 years from now, and I’m 75, so I’m hoping it’s true, the world will be a place that is run by nuclear ships because we’ve signed a piece packed within the world, and they’ll be transporting fully charged batteries out of Australia to all over the world and bringing back depleted batteries for recharge.

Rafael Epstein:

Sounds like not a bad view, Bruce. I’m going to steal realist idealist.

Emma Dawson:

Idealist. I love that. That’s new.

Rafael Epstein:

If that’s okay. Coming up after the 10:30 news, you are going to hear from two of the icons of Melbourne. They are both Mario, set up Mario’s Cafe in Brunswick Street in Fitzroy.

Well, after Emma has finished doing up a quick 30-page brief that she’s going to send in email to Colleen about the virtues of her tax idea versus other tax ideas, once you’ve completed that, Eman.

Emma Dawson:

And my NDIS one too. Yeah.

Rafael Epstein:

And your NDIS one about how we need to get rid of the voucher system, et cetera. What will you be watching, reading, or culture sharing?

Emma Dawson:

I’m going to reread Remembering Babylon by David Malouf, who has departed this mortal coil. He was a wonderful writer. I read it when it first came out about 30 years ago. It’s one of those books that’s impossible to describe, but really stays with you, and I will also perhaps read it while listening to some old models records featuring James Valentine.

Rafael Epstein:

Yeah, nice, and sorry, the name of the Malouf book again?

Emma Dawson:

Remembering Babylon. The one that was shortlisted for the book or in the early 90s, but it’s set in Australia, but it’s … I mean, you probably call it some kind of magical realism now. I don’t know. I’m not a literary critic, but yeah. Valet, both David Malouf and James Valentine.

Rafael Epstein:

Absolutely.

Colleen Harkin:

Typically on everything else, I’ve got something polar opposite. I’m catching up with all these classics that people have been talking about with my son, and we are watching Breaking Bad.

Emma Dawson:

Oh my God.

Colleen Harkin:

It is from 2008 to 2013. I just love it. I’m obsessed with it.

Rafael Epstein:

One of the best TV shows ever.

Colleen Harkin:

Yeah, but I’m worried because there’s about five or six series with 15 or so episodes…

Rafael Epstein:

Seasons.

Colleen Harkin:

I’m like, “Oh my God, my life is just taken up with it,” but I love it.

Emma Dawson:

I was a latecomer. I binged it during COVID. My late husband said, “I can’t stay married to you if you haven’t watched this.”

Colleen Harkin:

Well, my son put me onto it, so it’s a good one for all ages, I think.

Emma Dawson:

Yeah, it’s great.

Rafael Epstein:

All ages.?

Colleen Harkin:

I’m really enjoying it.

Emma Dawson:

Well, maybe not for kids.

Colleen Harkin:

Well, maybe not for kids. My 12 year old’s not watching it.

Emma Dawson:

18.

Rafael Epstein:

As Obi-Wan says to Luke in the original Star Wars film, welcome to a wider world. Breaking Bad.

Colleen Harkin:

So I’m catching up on all these classics.

Rafael Epstein:

So good.

Colleen Harkin is at the IPA, Emma Dawson is at the Chifley Research Centre. Thank you to both of you.

Colleen Harkin:

Thank you.

Emma Dawson:

Thank you both.

Rafael Epstein:

In a moment.

This transcript of Colleen Harkin on ABC Radio Melbourne from 24 April 2026 has been edited for clarity.